22-12-2002 18:28									#151
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of course you could reason your way out of that issue, but most people who saw it did believe the elves came from Rivendell.

of course, they shouldn't have put the elves in Helm's Deep at all. Holiwood sucks

	22-12-2002 20:37									#152
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elves are cool. we should have more elves in all scenes in a any possible way

	22-12-2002 22:38									#153
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guess they needed skilled archers for the battle, not too many from Rohan I guess.

	23-12-2002 12:57									#154
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In the book there were plenty of rohirrim at helms deep, inclouding eomer. It was Erkenbrand (a major rohirrim lord who'd gone off to fight the orcs with his own troops) gandalf went to find, and brought back.

I just don't understand so many of the changes they made. I don't mind most of them, but I just don't see why they changed them.

	23-12-2002 13:43									#155
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They changed it because in a movie you can't keep on introducing new characters. Why introduce eomer AND Erkenbrand, if one person could do both jobs.

That way it's possible for the general watcher to understand the story.

	23-12-2002 13:44									#156
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Call me a dork, but I thought that Helm's Deep was the worst instance of Midevil siege warfare that I've ever seen. I was thinking "Didn't they learn anything from Crecy and Agincourt?". And Gandalf's charge? I was hoping that they'd all be skewed for doing something that stupid.

On a more black note, was my theater the only one that had someone shout "Jihad" when the orc sapper ran in with the torch to detonate the breaching charges?

Last edited by Timexwatch on 23-12-2002 at 14:08

	23-12-2002 13:59									#157
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I think he fact that the incosticiencies with the book that are being shown are really quite small show what a good job Peter Jackson has done.

I have read all the books several times and I thought it was great

	23-12-2002 14:08									#158
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Timex, eh, what other movies show medieval siege warfare? I can't think of any at the top of my head...

Granted, I wondered what the masons were smoking when they decided to put a huge storm drain in the middle of the wall!!!!

	23-12-2002 14:10									#159
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quote: With its wings it could well have flown back up again as soon as it recovered from the unexpected fall.

quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Balrogs can't fly.

Goddammit! If they have wings, they can fly!

	23-12-2002 14:24									#160
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Fire and darkness are not hampered by gravity. Balrogs can fly.

	23-12-2002 14:26									#161
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Gandalf even mentioned Morgorth when fighting the Balrog thatwas good

	23-12-2002 16:19									#162
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Oh, dear, the Balrog-flying discusion again...

If you read your Tolkein, it said that the balrog had "wings of shadow" in which "wings" could be taken taken literally or as a metaphore. The movie solved this be having only the skelton of wings and the rest darkeness. Whether the damned thing flys or not doesn't matter as it was falling backwards and Gandalf was smacking it about too.

Even if it could right itself and fly, a thing that big would need a load of running space to lift off and once falling would never be able to slow down enough to stop falling, let alone rise.

As for inconsistencies with the book the only one I really wondered at was that Faramir let Frodo go at Oligarth (sp). In the book he was released before the battle.

And yeah, that morgoth mention was cool.

	23-12-2002 16:23									#163
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Osgiliath

Os. Gil. I. Ath.

Osg. Ili. Ath.

If we're gonna be geeky about this thing we may as well spell the names right.

	23-12-2002 16:34									#164
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sorry. but remembering over 400 made up words from tolkein is sometimes kinda hard seeing as I have no book around here to look it up. Some are more important than others too.

	23-12-2002 16:39									#165
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Dont you think the dwarf was a bit underplayed in battle sequences?
The elf was great and Aragorn was ok but the dwarf with his mighty axe, they didnt quite make him to deliver.

Although he payed off in being funny

	23-12-2002 16:41									#166
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quote: sorry. but remembering over 400 made up words from tolkein is sometimes kinda hard

Ash nazg dubratuluk
ash nazg gimbatul
ash nazg trakutaluk
agh burmuz-ishi krimpatul

I thought it would be cool to learn that by heart

and about the balrog who cannot fly:
even if it could fly, it still needs space to use it's wings, and there obviously isn't enough space for that while falling down. His wings would touch the walls.

	23-12-2002 20:13									#167
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Balrog's can't fly dammit!

quote: On a more black note, was my theater the only one that had someone shout "Jihad" when the orc sapper ran in with the torch to detonate the breaching charges?

No, surprisingly. I, and people with me, seemed to think the orc with the torch resembled those Olympian runners who run around with the olympic torch and light the fire at the start of every olympic games. You saw that orc running in slowmotion with only a torch in his hand, the orcs around him took a step back to make way. So to me, ironically, it seemed like an Olympian runner...a symbol of peace.

Of course, that didn't last long when Aragorn told Legolas to shoot the damned orc

	23-12-2002 20:16									#168
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A Balrog is one the most powerful creatures to inhabit Middlearth, it could stomp on a ringraith without braeking sweat, of course it can fly

	23-12-2002 20:24									#169
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quote: A Balrog is one the most powerful creatures to inhabit Middlearth, it could stomp on a ringraith without braeking sweat, of course it can fly

Gandalf appeared to be more powerful than this balrog, still Gandalf can't fly.

	23-12-2002 21:09									#170
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It's obvious to me at least we haven't seen the last of the battle at Osgiliath. It's probably going to be one of the two big parts of the last movie, which makes sense.

	23-12-2002 22:34									#171
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...i loved this movie ..and i know it will take heat for not including the last part of the book..but the last part ends with very little hope...and so they probably wanted to save the part about frodo's capture for a plot conflict for the next movie..i'm going to go see it again

	23-12-2002 23:13									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Big Fish so release 2 at a time.

Since each movie is three hours long, that's kinda what they did.

	23-12-2002 23:16									#173
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Constantinople must have been an epic battle like this but we didnt have gandalf and the elves. (j/k)

There were ten times as many Turks and the city was better for falling to them anyway. Heck, you didn't even have a Patriarch anymore until Murad II reinstated him.

	23-12-2002 23:43									#174
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This was a great movie... 4 out of 4 stars .... I'm going to go see it again. I'm waiting for it to come out in Imax format.

	23-12-2002 23:53									#175
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It was great, bit did they have to make Gimli into some sort of one-line comedian? Humor is ok in doses but not to the point of ridicule.

	24-12-2002 02:15									#176
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Just saw it. Wow.

I loved Gimli's comic relief, esp. the "We could have picked a better space" comment when they're waiting for the orcs to attack. The whole theatre cracked up at that

Gollum... wow. Gollum's the closest to a nonhuman intelligent creature that has been portayed by CGI, ever. Those movements, those faces...! Loved the inner conversations, heck, loved the hell out the whole character! (Well, except for times at the start - occassionally a bit too real, you know?)

Realized that the plot was changed at several places, and wasn't bothered too much about it. Director doesn't need walk the exact steps of the original writer, no matter how much fanboys would prefer it to be so. Aragorn's fake death was a wee bit stupid, though.

Loved the CGI - except wargs, for some reason. I had always just imagined them as really big wolves. The warg that looked at Gimli before it was killed by Aragorn looked like a big puppet.

Inadvertent crack-up at the start of the film - Frodo feels the power of the ring and clutches his heart, suddenly a mobile telephone goes off at audience - and soon after that, Sam reaches for his backpack. Other inadvertent (almost-)crackups were the overuse of children in the Helm's Deep pre-battle scenes and the arrival of Shadowfax - it was short scene, but somehow made me think of those horse movies for 12-year-old girls. Eh, not that I've seen one.

I'm REALLY looking forwards for RotK. Esp. Shelob, big battle scenes and Frodo at the Mount Doom (hope they pull it off VERY good.)

	24-12-2002 02:45									#177
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Yeah, I saw it on Saturday, very good Tempted to go and see it again at some point

	24-12-2002 11:19									#178
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I'll go for a 2nd time for sure.
Who else will?

3rd time anyone?

	27-12-2002 14:59									#179
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Finally saw it last night. Generally liked it, though not as much as the first one (but it's still better than anything I've seen in ages). Some comments:

* Agree with Stefu that Gimli's a riot ("Don't tell the elf" is my favorite line in either movie), but also agree with paiktis that his warrior skills should have been given the same attention as Aragorn's and Legolas'. I wanna see Gimli kick ass, dammit!

* I thought there was too much emphasis on narrative this time, and not enought on mythic themes. I loved the moment when the elves arrive at Helm's Deep, and their leader gives the speech about the old days, the ancient alliance, and the need to honor it. At that moment I thought, "Oh, right, this is about something." I love moments like that, and there were too few of them here.

* I HATE the fact that Gollum is computer animated. It's not just that he keeps reminding me of ET, Yoda, and Jar-Jar. It's that I find it impossible to work up a serious emotional response to a high-tech sock puppet. Gollum should inspire terror, dread, and ultimately pathos in that profound, ancient Greek sense. Instead he's just kinda cool looking and vaguely amusing. He should have been played by an actor.

* I know they have a huge book to adapt here, but I find it frustrating when key plot developments seem to come out of nowhere (or seem to rely on a knowledge of the book). The Elven cloaks work as camoflage? There's a dammed river above Saruman's tower? Some hint of these things before they become central to the narrative would be nice.

But that said, I'm looking forward to #3 and will surely see this one again.

	27-12-2002 15:02									#180
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quote: The Elven cloaks work as camoflage?

You should watch the Extended DVD Edition,
it's mentioned in it
I have it, wanna rent it?