18-12-2002 15:41									#31
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There was nothing in the article about her being sexually active. One can be a lesbian without being sexually active, just as one can be straight without being sexually active -- which should go without saying on Apolyton.

I don't disagree with your assessment on its own terms, but I think you're jumping to some pretty big conclusions here. She could just know she's gay. I have lesbian friends who knew that at 13, though most of them didn't get to act on it until college.

	18-12-2002 15:43									#32
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quote: In British society definitely. And I'm not making across-the-board generalisations, I'm saying that it's in certain leftist cliques that this behaviour continues, in order to prove I don't know what.

	18-12-2002 16:23									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly There was nothing in the article about her being sexually active. One can be a lesbian without being sexually active, just as one can be straight without being sexually active -- which should go without saying on Apolyton. I don't disagree with your assessment on its own terms, but I think you're jumping to some pretty big conclusions here. She could just know she's gay. I have lesbian friends who knew that at 13, though most of them didn't get to act on it until college.

Yea, I'm working without a net. Seriously though, deciding and announcing that you are gay at that age tends to set off alarm bells for me. That is not only stuff that for the vast majority tends to be figured out later, it is also strange that she has made it public. I admit that I'm totally guessing about this, but they are educated guesses. If it was my daughter I would be very concerned about what was behind her behavior. Being a Jr. High School lesbian could be the very least of her problems.

	18-12-2002 17:03									#34
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Somebody said that being bi is a cool thing that society appreicates... no it is not and that I know. Society places a lot of pressure on people to be straight whether they are male or female. People must live up to the ¨norms¨ or they will get pushed around for it.

	18-12-2002 17:18									#35
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I think I've read several times that people can't be sure about their sexual orientation until they're 19. It might change several times before that age. But why not go to gym? I'm heterosexual, but I've been at the gym lessons with girls as well....

I agree with my fellow dutchman.

It takes all threw our teen years to actually find out what you really are, and until then if you want to experiment bisexually I see no reason why this can't happen at age 13. Why are people stunting this girls sexual developement? Probably because they have issues with their own sexual early teen years (awwww... poor sad pathetic loosers). Only in America. (Ok, maybe Britain).

As for where she should doush, there should be unisex changing rooms, damnit! It's the 21st century afterall. And you don't see gay guys being put in the girls locker room (otherwise I would tell everyone I'm gay ).

	18-12-2002 17:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Huh?? There's social pressure for girls to be bi or lesbians in society? Just when I thought I'd seen it all. Last time I checked, the social pressure was to be straight. You know, what with common sense and all...

every girl I know has been pressured to have sex with other girls by their boyfriends (or the like) (this includes mom, all sisters, all freinds (who I engage in dicsussions of these sort, some random people I overheard, ect)

numerous girls I know did have sex with other girls purely because guys wanted them to (I overheard them talking)

it is a big phenomenum in highschool and college (and beyond too)

Jon Miller

	18-12-2002 17:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller every girl I know has been pressured to have sex with other girls by their boyfriends (or the like) (this includes mom, all sisters, all freinds (who I engage in dicsussions of these sort, some random people I overheard, ect)

Where are you living in? Being bi sucks where ever I have been.

quote: numerous girls I know did have sex with other girls purely because guys wanted them to (I overheard them talking) it is a big phenomenum in highschool and college (and beyond too) Jon Miller

I highly doubt that... a big phenomenum? The society norm is to be straight. And society puts a huge amount of pressure for both males and females alike to follow that norm. I highly doubt your assertions are true.

	18-12-2002 17:52									#38
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Yes, as Jon Miller said, there is much pressure for (straight) females to be bi. (Straight) Guys enjoy that sort of thing.

	18-12-2002 18:28									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller every girl I know has been pressured to have sex with other girls by their boyfriends (or the like) (this includes mom, all sisters, all freinds (who I engage in dicsussions of these sort, some random people I overheard, ect) numerous girls I know did have sex with other girls purely because guys wanted them to (I overheard them talking) it is a big phenomenum in highschool and college (and beyond too) Jon Miller

I think you take it a bit far. There is pressure, ok, but not that much. Peer pressure to join in sexual extravaganzas is part of growing up. If I had a dime for every time some guy/girl pushed me to another sexual preference I would be... well.. more rich than I am now (which is broke )! Anyway, its for girls and guys and its normal, its part of discovering who you are.

	18-12-2002 18:59									#40
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oh, and Fez, being bi doesn't suck in Holland, everything here is cool.

	18-12-2002 19:11									#41
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone oh, and Fez, being bi doesn't suck in Holland, everything here is cool.

Well not in places I have lived in, including the US when I was there. As you all know I am bi, and in the school in Ecuador (where I lived before) I got called a fag all the time. (Well it is was an American Private school and nobody actually knew I was bi, but that isn't the point. The point is I haven't been in tolerating atmospheres)

	18-12-2002 22:19									#42
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"Hi! I'm Stew. Can I buy you a drink?"

"No thanks. I've.....ummm....errrr....suddenly become a lesbian. Yes, that's right. I'm a bushwhacker now."


I think he may have a point.

	18-12-2002 22:49									#43
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as an eighth grader, i have a little different perspective from you all. there is not a single idea in society about how cool being gay/bi is. in my school, the sexual preference of the girls is rarely commented on, but a girl who transfered here said at her old school girls were persecuted as 'lesbos' all the time.

and i do think someone 14 or 15 years old can decide their sexual preference. i am straight and i know it. i have no feelings for guys, and im sure this girl feels the same way.

	18-12-2002 22:57									#44
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Being thought of as gay or lesbian in my middle school and high school was an instance sentence of ostracization, persecution and malicious abuse. There was nothing remotely cool about it. I was certainly gay at that point (I told a friend of my mom's that I had a crush on a guy when I was 7), but the environments in which I existed were so hostile to such a thing that I would not have dared express anything remotely like it. I went to the opposite extreme and expressed borderline homophobia.

There's nothing in any modern society now that would entice a person who is heterosexual to dabble in homosexuality out of "coolness" or peer pressure. The opposite remains true. Even in Holland, I am certain that pressure on a teen from his parents alone would be inhibitive of it. My parents are quite liberal, open-minded people, and I was still terrified of their learning about my sexuality out of fear they would become hostile. Every gay person goes through such thoughts when faced with their loved ones finding out.

	18-12-2002 23:04									#45
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Ecuador where I used to live has one of the worst gay rights records in South America. The National Police were not that bad but the Army certainly was. That really sucked because when I was there soldiers were everywhere. If they saw two guys together I wouldn't know what they would do. Probably open fire.

So there is nothing "cool" about it.

	18-12-2002 23:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov There's nothing in any modern society now that would entice a person who is heterosexual to dabble in homosexuality out of "coolness" or peer pressure.

Oh, come on Boris! I'm not sure why Apolyton's gay posters are giving me such a hard time with this. There is a substantial "hipness" factor for girls to experiment with bisexuality. If this form of "coolness" didn't exist, there are many girls who would have otherwise never experimented in this manner. I'm sure that in your days of growing up this wasn't so, as this is quite a new phenomena. But this is a well-accepted trueism for the most part. This isn't some sort evil conspiracy to make homosexuality appear illegitimate or anything. As I said earlier, if anything this only proves sexuality to be a much more fluid thing. I think a lot of homosexuals feel the need, perhaps because of the persecution that they suffer, to maintain that being gay is something that is biologically set in stone and unchangeable. Therefore, they adamantly deny the presence of any sort of non-biological factor. This is perfectly understandable of course, but I am of the belief that sexuality can be best understood when both biological and societal factors are looked at objectively.

	18-12-2002 23:21									#47
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I am sorry monkspider, but there isn't one bit of anything to incite girls to experiment with bisexuality. Nothing. Zippo. Nada. There is pressure and harassment against it.

	18-12-2002 23:32									#48
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Oh, come on Boris! I'm not sure why Apolyton's gay posters are giving me such a hard time with this.

I wasn't giving you a hard time, I was expressing my opinion.

quote: There is a substantial "hipness" factor for girls to experiment with bisexuality.

I have never, ever seen it. I think it's a myth gleaned from a few hollywood movies and general stereotypes. Homosexuality in teens is still vastly persecuted, not encouraged.

quote: If this form of "coolness" didn't exist, there are many girls who would have otherwise never experimented in this manner. I'm sure that in your days of growing up this wasn't so, as this is quite a new phenomena. But this is a well-accepted trueism for the most part. This isn't some sort evil conspiracy to make homosexuality appear illegitimate or anything. As I said earlier, if anything this only proves sexuality to be a much more fluid thing.

Doing something out of "coolness" isn't always a motivation. I believe it is perfectly possible for a heterosexual to be attracted to someone of the same sex and experiment physically on a basis of sharing an intimate moment with someone whose personality and such attract them. All the straight men and women I know who experimented with gay sex did so secretly and quite furtively. You can't say they were being cool, because they didn't let anyone else know at the time.

quote: I think a lot of homosexuals feel the need, perhaps because of the persecution that they suffer, to maintain that being gay is something that is biologically set in stone and unchangeable. Therefore, they adamantly deny the presence of any sort of non-biological factor. This is perfectly understandable of course, but I am of the belief that sexuality can be best understood when both biological and societal factors are looked at objectively.

Not sure whom you are addressing, but I certainly have never asserted homosexuality is purely biological. I believe there are many factors and have always stated so. All I am addressing in this thread is that I don't buy that there is any significant trend of peer pressure to dabble in homosexuality or coolness about being bisexual among youth in this country. It is something that is overwhelming frowned upon still, and even progressive parents will more often than not (understandably, though) react negatively to the idea their teenager might be gay.

	19-12-2002 00:56									#49
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quote: Oh, come on Boris! I'm not sure why Apolyton's gay posters are giving me such a hard time with this.

Perhaps they're the only ones who see how patently ridiculous it is to be even talking about the "phenomenon" of "lipstick lesbians" and peer pressure making girls lesbians.

I think in today's society more girls are open to experimentation, or for all we know girls experimented just as much 50 years ago but kept it completely private since it was such a social taboo.

The whole argument of social pressure making girls lesbian or bi is just ridiculous, because even if their boyfriends would think it would be cool for them to be bi or something, I'm pretty damn sure everyone else around them thinks it would be far "cooler" if they were straight.

In summary, while there may be pressure to be homosexual or bisexual, the pressure NOT to be homosexual or bisexual significantly outweighs that.

	19-12-2002 01:07									#50
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If you go to the strip clubs (which I admit don't represent the real world) you can see the pressure for women to be lesbo. True they aren't real lesbians. But women who do dirty stuff with other women on stage will get more money.

Granted in the real world that effect isn't that pronounced. But you hear stories all the time about girls experimenting in college. It is much more accepted for a girl to experiment than a guy. And I listen to dirty radio talk shows a lot. You'd be suprised how many guys want their girlfriends to do a threesome with another woman. And this includes having the guy watch while the girls go at it.

	19-12-2002 01:10									#51
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and I'm suprised some ass munch didn't vote for expel. I put that option in there because I knew someone would vote for it. But it hasn't happened yet.

	19-12-2002 01:18									#52
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Don't complain.

	19-12-2002 01:42									#53
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I honestly don't know monkspider is talking about when he says there is pressure for anyone to be homosexual/bisexual. In all of my school years I have observed no such thing and in fact school seems to be a pretty homophobic environment. Even in college there are still plenty of people who use the word "gay" as a synonym for something or someone that they see as bad.

I don't think this girl should be excluded from gym class, but I do think she should have to change seperately from the other girls.

	19-12-2002 01:58									#54
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all the groups I have been in (midwest and west coast) have had that pressure

and it is by both freinds and boyfreinds

and if everyone is asking them to, that is the definition of pressure

now, maybe it is not the case in the northeast, I don't know, I never went to school there

but there are areas/groups I know where the majority are Bi

so, you have me and Monkspider in the midwest and west coast, and you in the east coast that see something different

so maybe it is regional, but it doesn't stop it from existing where I and monkspider are

if social pressure could have made Boris (very much a homosexual) act straight for a portion of his life, how is it ahrd to beleive that social pressure can not make girls behave bi/lez, at least for a while?

Jon Miller

	19-12-2002 01:59									#55
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you say it is different because it is different where you are at

we are just saying how it is where we are at

Jon Miller

	19-12-2002 02:00									#56
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Well it's certainly not like that in California and western Canada.

Maybe you boys are just letting your imaginations get the best of you?

	19-12-2002 02:04									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I have never, ever seen it. I think it's a myth gleaned from a few hollywood movies and general stereotypes. Homosexuality in teens is still vastly persecuted, not encouraged.

we see it

I have heard (randomly while walking arround my college) girls say that they ahd sex with a girl just because their boyfreind wanted them to and she didn't want to

why did she do it than? because she was pressured by her boyfreind

now none of my close female freinds engage in sex with women, and neither my mom nor my sisters have told if they have (and to be honest, I did not ask and I don't want to know (but I do know that my younger sister, who I hung arround for a while, was asked to all the time by her (male) freinds and at least one boyfreind))

guys are pressured sometimes to (get pushed into bed with a Bi-guy and the like) but it is not as common

Jon Miller

	19-12-2002 02:07									#58
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quote: guys are pressured sometimes to (get pushed into bed with a Bi-guy and the like) but it is not as common

Now that statement is absolutely wrong.... no way... maybe there is a little bit of pressure from some people for women to have sex with other women... but not for guys. Do you have any idea how much crap gay/bi guys get for being who they are?

	19-12-2002 02:10									#59
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What I want to know is how anyone can compare any minute pressure to be bi/lesbian with the enormous pressure not to be...

	19-12-2002 02:11									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Well it's certainly not like that in California and western Canada. Maybe you boys are just letting your imaginations get the best of you?

personal expereince, not imagination

(I have a female freind that hugs girls all the time and so on but I don't think she is bi, if I thought she was bit that would be my imagination; being with a girl that is having all the people arround her telling her to makeout with this other girl, that is experience)

Jon Miller