20-12-2002 03:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus so I already won. You can't answer even my first question.

May I send the question right back to you? Because I doubt you know the answer either.

Look, there is no god. Reason: I am going with my gut feeling on that.

	20-12-2002 03:45									#32
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quote: Look, there is no god. Reason: I am going with my gut feeling on that.

that's no argument.

quote: And since there is no way you can prove a single word you say I go with the benefit of the doubt, that there is no god.

benefit of the doubt? then you ought to give God a chance, right? so why don't you? why isn't there a God, other than "your gut feeling"?

	20-12-2002 03:45									#33
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quote: Only Creationists who believe one must interpret the Bible literally have a problem with evolution, because it runs contrary to the Biblical account

and don't forget to mention how stories like the paradise would be.. a&e like some prehistoric creatures..

so god is behind the evolution process.. but a quite big diversity of species are erradicated since evolution turned them into something hilarious..

	20-12-2002 03:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus benefit of the doubt? then you ought to give God a chance, right? so why don't you? why isn't there a God, other than "your gut feeling"?

There isn't a god because it doesn't make sense for there to be one. I am an atheist and will not be moved by a monotheist.

Why the heck should I believe in something that doesn't make any sense or can't even be proven? The existence of god doesn't have any evidence. You may say to disprove god doesn't have any evidence either but I'd rather go with what I think on this.

	20-12-2002 03:52									#35
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quote: There isn't a god because it doesn't make sense for there to be one.

why not?

btw, that's no argument, that's a statement. Please tell me why it makes no sense for there to be a God.

quote: I am an atheist and will not be moved by a monotheist.

I'm an agnost, Fez.

	20-12-2002 03:53									#36
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quote: Why the heck should I believe in something that doesn't make any sense or can't even be proven? The existence of god doesn't have any evidence. You may say to disprove god doesn't have any evidence either but I'd rather go with what I think on this.

you can't disprove God either. You can only make arguments for, and against, the existance of one. Now please make an argument AGAINST the existance of God.

	20-12-2002 03:54									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus why not? btw, that's no argument, that's a statement. Please tell me why it makes no sense for there to be a God.

All I will say is it doesn't make sense for there to be one. Why should there be? god is something humans made up to make themselves not be afraid of death.

quote: I'm an agnost, Fez.

And I am an atheist existentialist.

	20-12-2002 03:55									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus ow please make an argument AGAINST the existance of God.

My argument: Why the hell should there be one? Disprove that.

	20-12-2002 03:59									#39
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quote: All I will say is it doesn't make sense for there to be one.

statement, no argument.

quote: Why should there be?

counter-question, no argument.

quote: god is something humans made up to make themselves not be afraid of death.

God and afterlife have nothing to do with eachother. Budhist believe in an afterlife (in the form of another life on earth), but don't believe in a God. (many) Jews don't believe in an afterlife, but do believe in a God. A life after death, and the existance of a God, don't always have something to do with eachother.

quote: And I am an atheist existentialist.

oh really? and I assume you've read the works of Sartre then?

	20-12-2002 03:59									#40
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quote: My argument: Why the hell should there be one? Disprove that.

that's no argument. If it is, I can counter it by saying: "Why the hell shouldn't there be one? Disprove that".

	20-12-2002 04:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus God and afterlife have nothing to do with eachother. Budhist believe in an afterlife (in the form of another life on earth), but don't believe in a God. (many) Jews don't believe in an afterlife, but do believe in a God. A life after death, and the existance of a God, don't always have something to do with eachother.

Well pal I don't believe in god. Is there too much more you should know about that/

quote: oh really? and I assume you've read the works of Sartre then?

No I have not. But the works of Camus, yes I have.

Would you stop trying to strike at something as gray as this? You say I should provide arguments when you cannot even provide anything yourself.

	20-12-2002 04:01									#42
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Fez : are you a functionalist as well as an atheist existentialist ?

Saint Marcus : could you please explain me precisely what the difference between agnost and atheist is ? I never knew it in detail...

	20-12-2002 04:03									#43
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No I am not.

From what I know:

Atheist - Belief in no god
Agnostic - Not sure

	20-12-2002 04:09									#44
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quote: Well pal I don't believe in god. Is there too much more you should know about that

yes. what are your arguments for it?

quote: No I have not.

someone calling himself an existentialist, but hasn't read Sartre.

quote: But the works of Camus, yes I have.

Really. Interesting. Not the most distinguised or difficult philosopher, but it's something. Can you tell me what they are about, in your view.

And I assume you agree with him, calling yourself an existentialist and all. I'm sure you know that Camus was part of the Parisian avant garde leftists for a while, don't you?

quote: You say I should provide arguments when you cannot even provide anything yourself.

Nor can you. But I have an excuse. I'm an agnost, I admit I'm not sure. Yet you claim to be an atheist, but have absolutely no arguments at all why you are one. that's pretty funny.

quote: Fez : are you a functionalist as well as an atheist existentialist ?

I think he's neither. He's just atheist.

quote: Saint Marcus : could you please explain me precisely what the difference between agnost and atheist is ? I never knew it in detail...

An atheist rejects that God(s) exists. He believes there is no God. An agnost is just not sure.

	20-12-2002 04:12									#45
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The theory of evolution describes a progress: it makes no statements as to the starting point of the process, nor the ending of it either. As long as you believe that the process evolution describes does occur, and has occured in the past, and will in the future, you are an evolutionist.

Belief in God is unscientific, in the sense that it is impossible, thorugh the scientific method, to come up with any sort of evidence for or against (by these of course we mean experimental or tangible eivdence. Rationalistic arguments aside).

Since beliefe in God is based on faith, it is quite possible to believe in God and the process of evolution.
Personally, I do not believe in God (as pictured in the monotheistic sense, as a single sentient entity), since for me, this is moving the basic question of origins one step back (why can't the universe come out of nothing, but that's fine for God?)
BUt at the same time, I can offer no evidence against the belief in God, so que sera, sera.

	20-12-2002 04:22									#46
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quote: Belief in God is unscientific, in the sense that it is impossible, thorugh the scientific method, to come up with any sort of evidence for or against

of course that's the case. but there are various other things that we take for granted, yet cannot proof. All things regarding ethics for that matter.

	20-12-2002 05:52									#47
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Well I think we can prove that God exists, but not necessaryly thourgh scientific means. I would look at like trying to prove a person exists or not. I mean things you could look for is things the person has done, people the person talked to, people who have seen the person. All though you could not do all those things with God, but I do believe that you can prove the He exists. Weather or not you accept the proof or not is anther matter. FOr instant the Bible. I know many here dont believe it, so would not accept it as proof that God exists.

	20-12-2002 06:34									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus yes. what are your arguments for it?

I believe science corresponds with the belief in no god.

An existentialists, usually accept the fact that this is the only life there is, and thus accept the fact that they must live every day of their life to its fullest.

Jack:

quote: Well I think we can prove that God exists, but not necessaryly thourgh scientific means.

Prove it! You cannot prove that god exists. That statement itself is incorrect.

quote: I would look at like trying to prove a person exists or not.

Purely irrelevant. Whether a person exists or not is simple. But you cannot prove god, and I will make one concession you cannot disprove god either. However I go with my feelings that there is no god.

quote: All though you could not do all those things with God, but I do believe that you can prove the He exists.

Prove it. Prove that he exists. You can't. I am sorry but that is another assumptionary statement.

quote: Weather or not you accept the proof or not is anther matter. FOr instant the Bible.

Fact 1) The bible was written by man.

Fact 2) The bible doesn't prove anything.

Fact 3) The bible thusly isn't proof.

quote: I know many here dont believe it, so would not accept it as proof that God exists.

Fact 4) You cannot prove that god exists either way.

Finally, Jack, your statements are exactly what fundamentalists say. "god is there because he has to be" is purely assumptionary.

Actually Mark may be right, I might be more of a weak atheist rather than a strong one, as I really don't care about whether god exists of not. But when questioned I maintain god does not exist.

	20-12-2002 06:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus An atheist rejects that God(s) exists. He believes there is no God. An agnost is just not sure.

Wrong-o. As Loinburger has explained to me, Atheists are anyone who do not believe in God, including Agnostics. Now, there are soft Atheists (Agnostics) and hard Athiests (Reject God totally), but all are Atheists.

For the purposes of social identification with a group, however, it is most convenient to separate Agnostics from hard Atheists, otherwise labeling oneself Atheist will induce the erroneous assumption that one believes there is no God.

	20-12-2002 06:49									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I believe science corresponds with the belief in no god. An existentialists, usually accept the fact that this is the only life there is, and thus accept the fact that they must live every day of their life to its fullest. Jack: Prove it! You cannot prove that god exists. That statement itself is incorrect. Purely irrelevant. Whether a person exists or not is simple. But you cannot prove god, and I will make one concession you cannot disprove god either. However I go with my feelings that there is no god. Prove it. Prove that he exists. You can't. I am sorry but that is another assumptionary statement. Fact 1) The bible was written by man. Fact 2) The bible doesn't prove anything. Fact 3) The bible thusly isn't proof. Fact 4) You cannot prove that god exists either way. Finally, Jack, your statements are exactly what fundamentalists say. "god is there because he has to be" is purely assumptionary. Actually Mark may be right, I might be more of a weak atheist rather than a strong one, as I really don't care about whether god exists of not. But when questioned I maintain god does not exist.

Fez you missed the whole point of my post. I was not trying to prove God exists, I was trying to say that you can prove that he exits or does not exists the way you would prove if a person existed or not.

	20-12-2002 06:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Well I think we can prove that God exists, but not necessaryly thourgh scientific means.

Well then, what better ways to "prove" anything are there?

quote: I would look at like trying to prove a person exists or not. I mean things you could look for is things the person has done, people the person talked to, people who have seen the person. All though you could not do all those things with God, but I do believe that you can prove the He exists.

How??

quote: Weather or not you accept the proof or not is anther matter. FOr instant the Bible. I know many here dont believe it, so would not accept it as proof that God exists.

The Bible is a book, one that contains much mythological and other improbable or erroneous happenings. If we can take the Bible as proof of God's existence, then perhaps Lord of the Ring proves that Frodo exists?

	20-12-2002 06:50									#52
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Or better yet, the Illiad is proof of the existence of Athena, Mars and Zeus!

	20-12-2002 06:54									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Fez you missed the whole point of my post. I was not trying to prove God exists, I was trying to say that you can prove that he exits or does not exists the way you would prove if a person existed or not.

Huh?

Can you say that again, I sorta lost you.

If I caught this right, you are basically repeating what I said.

But you must catch this clearly I said I BELIEVE there is no god. Can I prove it? No. Can somebody else disprove my beliefs? No they cannot. I am just going with my feelings.

	20-12-2002 06:54									#54
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Boris:

Well-said.

Gotta watch Gladiator again to learn more about Roman history.

	20-12-2002 08:47									#55
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Mark,

Why are you baiting Fez?


Boris,

You buffoon. How can you put Zeus and Mars together? You either use Zeus or Ares, or Jupiter with Mars.

	20-12-2002 08:49									#56
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It's all explained in the Good Book. If you believe differently, you are damned.

	20-12-2002 08:51									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I would look at like trying to prove a person exists or not. I mean things you could look for is things the person has done, people the person talked to, people who have seen the person. All though you could not do all those things with God, but I do believe that you can prove the He exists.

That seems to be implausible, because while you can directly attribute certain actions to a person, this cannot be said of YHWH.

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www FOr instant the Bible. I know many here dont believe it, so would not accept it as proof that God exists.

If the bible proves YHWH, do the holy books of Hinduism prove Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva?

	20-12-2002 08:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Wrong-o. As Loinburger has explained to me, Atheists are anyone who do not believe in God, including Agnostics. Now, there are soft Atheists (Agnostics) and hard Athiests (Reject God totally), but all are Atheists.

I can't agree with that.

Agnostic is generally uses to decribe somebody who cannot make up his mind - a fence-sitter, as it were. As far as I can see, it is just an evasion.

As for atheists, there are many "sub-classes" (for want of a better decription), ranging from those who don't believe simply because they haven't heard of such-and-such a diety to those who don't believe based on philosophical grounds. Among the latter group, there are Weak (Negative) Atheists and Strong (Positive) Atheists. Weak Atheists are those who hold that there are no good reasons to belief in the existence of a deity (or a group of deities) while Strong Atheists are those who hold that there are good reasons to believe that there are no gods - in particular the Judeo-Christianity one.

	20-12-2002 09:08									#59
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I really get ticked off when the mislead laymen say we are the point of evolution. Evolution has no defined path. it works in any way to keep organisms reproducing themselves. Eye, heads, brains,if they get in the way they will be selected against. Also, "primitive" organisms arent inferior, no species is superior to another. Bacteria may be simple structurally, but they are highly complex metabolically (think of the ones that live off sulfur in hot springs and hydrothermal vents.). Many protists, like Paramecium and Euglena are single celled, but each single cell is highly complex internally. Our Anthropocentric views must be cast aside in search of knowlege. We are but just one leaf on the Tree of Life.

	20-12-2002 09:14									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I can't agree with that. Agnostic is generally uses to decribe somebody who cannot make up his mind - a fence-sitter, as it were. As far as I can see, it is just an evasion.

An Agnostic is still and Atheist, though. Being a fence-sitter means you don't believe in God (or don't disbelieve). That makes one the opposite a theist, which is someone who believes in God. Which means one is an atheist.

And agnostic "fence sitting" isn't as weak as some people tend to think. I'm pretty firm in my Agnosticism, and don't see it as ever wavering from the position I am at now.