20-12-2002 09:32									#61
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I see many in here dont understand what I was trying to say. Does anyone understand what I posted?

	20-12-2002 09:39									#62
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Why don't you explain, then?

	20-12-2002 09:42									#63
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First off in my post I was not trying to prove God exists!
Second I said that if God existed that you can prove it in a simular way to proving a person exists.
Thrid I said that I know that many people here would never accept the Bible as proof that God exists.
That was main points of my post.

	20-12-2002 09:43									#64
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I agree with all three.

So what are your opinions?

	20-12-2002 09:44									#65
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I don't see how you could expect to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient being in the same manner in which one proves a person exists...

	20-12-2002 09:46									#66
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Well God is a person. Just not a human, but still a person. And a few posts back allready stated by beliefs, but I do believe that God exists.

	20-12-2002 09:47									#67
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You can, IF "God" is not omnipotent and omniscient - in other words, if God is measurable.

That would apply to Jupiter, Shiva, Quezacoatl (sp), etc.

	20-12-2002 09:47									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Well God is a person. Just not a human, but still a person. And a few posts back allready stated by beliefs, but I do believe that God exists.

OK.
Justify.

	20-12-2002 09:50									#69
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Well dont have time now, but will when I get home.

	20-12-2002 09:52									#70
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan You can, IF "God" is not omnipotent and omniscient - in other words, if God is measurable. That would apply to Jupiter, Shiva, Quezacoatl (sp), etc.

That would only leave us with extremely powerful, non-omnipotent beings called "gods," but leave unanswered the question of there being an omnipotent "God."

Okay, Jack--how would you prove that an omnipotent, omniscient person that is invisible to us and doesn't obviously manifest himself exists?

	20-12-2002 17:25									#71
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quote: I don't see how you could expect to prove the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient being in the same manner in which one proves a person exists...

you can't prove either.

You can't prove that anything exists outside your own mind even. Any argument you'll try to reason your way out of it will fail.

	20-12-2002 17:28									#72
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quote: Okay, Jack--how would you prove that an omnipotent, omniscient person that is invisible to us and doesn't obviously manifest himself exists?

You can't.

Believe in God is on the same page as anything related to ethics. You believe some things are right, and some things are wrong, but you can't prove either.

	20-12-2002 17:36									#73
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I disagree, belief in god must be like belief in the big bang, either the existance of a god is a fact- or it is not, the univers was not created by a belief.

Personally, I reckon humanity created god, that's why he's such a weak case.

	20-12-2002 18:09									#74
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Marcus, I know the answers, I'm asking Jack for his rationale.

	20-12-2002 18:19									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus you can't prove either. You can't prove that anything exists outside your own mind even. Any argument you'll try to reason your way out of it will fail.

In that case, the question of 'Does god exist' is the wrong question, the real question is 'does anything else exist at all, do I exist myself?'

	20-12-2002 19:10									#76
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quote: In that case, the question of 'Does god exist' is the wrong question, the real question is 'does anything else exist at all, do I exist myself?'

I exist. cogito ergo sum after all. I can't be sure if you exist though, or if my body exists even.

	20-12-2002 19:14									#77
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I think the bible isn't clear on how God created the earth / life / etc.
It's not clear on what specific animals God created.
It's not specific clear on how God created man.

Neither is the Bible clear on the timerange of the creation, the period between creation of the earth and the '7 days' episode.
The bible isn't clear on the period between the creation and the fall either.
this could be billions of years.

Concidering all that, I think you can take the bible literal, and still have another opinion on the creation but the 'literal 7 days' creation.

Since I believe that God doesn't have to obey to time,
I can see how he could be able to enforce evolution within a second. (or in 6 days, for that matter )
including all the time stamps.

For that reason I think most here are right.
evolution and believe in God do not have to conflict.

Not even to speak about the idea that the world kept/started evolving since the creation. I surely believe that.

But I think the idea of evolution without the involvement of God does conflict with the idea about God though.
Unless you want to believe in a god we have hardly any connection with.

	20-12-2002 19:23									#78
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I best not comment.

	21-12-2002 04:06									#79
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Thanks for all answers about agnost / atheist guys I won't enter the debate on whether agnosts are a subgroup of atheists or not (is it important anyway ? ), so I'd say your answers made things clear to me

As for I, I'm rather a 'derelict' (or whatever it is called in Englidh) : I don't oppose the idea a superior and mystical being / group of superior mystical beings created the universe, but I assume they left it to fend for itself, because their creation sucks

It allows not to believe in god in everyday without worrying about the whole 'creation of the universe' problem (pretty cowardly, but at least I don't have to bother with religion )

	21-12-2002 17:25									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov And agnostic "fence sitting" isn't as weak as some people tend to think. I'm pretty firm in my Agnosticism, and don't see it as ever wavering from the position I am at now.

Your pants are glued to the fence

	21-12-2002 17:29									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus You can't prove that anything exists outside your own mind even. Any argument you'll try to reason your way out of it will fail.

You can't do that. How will you go about doing that?

You don't exist, you are just a pigment (or fragment, if you prefer) of my imagination.