19-12-2002 21:20									#1
	Whats the difference between creation and evolution? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have took part in this discussion many times here.
What I find confussing is where does GOD fall into this topic.
I believe that GOD put the creatures here and they did evolve over time.

Which side do I belong on?

	19-12-2002 21:23									#2
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You just aren't an extremist.

If you believe in God then that's a sensible point of view.

	19-12-2002 21:24									#3
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I think there is no god.

Evolution is the truth.

	19-12-2002 21:24									#4
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You are a theistic evolutionist.

	19-12-2002 21:28									#5
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being a theistic evolutionist means you're under attack from both sides.

	19-12-2002 21:30									#6
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Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the existence/nonexistence of God. Only Creationists who believe one must interpret the Bible literally have a problem with evolution, because it runs contrary to the Biblical account.

There is nothing incongruous about believing in both evolution as fact and God.

	19-12-2002 21:38									#7
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quote: There is nothing incongruous about believing in both evolution as fact and God.

yep. But you'd be believing in a false God.

I've been accused of this myself on numerous occasions.

	19-12-2002 21:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus being a theistic evolutionist means you're under attack from both sides.

Stop being an agitator you

No, only Creationists will attack you. Evolution does not deal with God.

	19-12-2002 21:42									#9
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quote: No, only Creationists will attack you. Evolution does not deal with God.

Evolutionist scientist will scoff at you if you admit to believe that God directs the evolutionary proces.

	19-12-2002 21:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Evolutionist scientist will scoff at you if you admit to believe that God directs the evolutionary proces.

Did he say that? Hm? Hm?

	19-12-2002 21:51									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood I have took part in this discussion many times here. What I find confussing is where does GOD fall into this topic. I believe that GOD put the creatures here and they did evolve over time. Which side do I belong on?

...Which creatures?

If you think the first creatures were microbes, you're a theistic evolutionist.

If you think they were a whole range of well-developed organisms including fish, birds, reptiles and mammals, but they still underwent significant evolution afterwards, you're... um... something else.

And you'll get attacked from all sides.

	19-12-2002 21:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Evolutionist scientist will scoff at you if you admit to believe that God directs the evolutionary proces.

I don't see why. There is no way of proving that an ominpotent, ominpresent God wouldn't be able to do such a thing.

	19-12-2002 22:37									#13
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quote: I don't see why. There is no way of proving that an ominpotent, ominpresent God wouldn't be able to do such a thing.

cause it's not scientific to assume there is. There is no indication that design is part of evolution, so why believe in a designer?

	19-12-2002 22:37									#14
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Boris :
I think evolution means there are a bunch of failed attempts to make a species more fit to its environment (I may be wrong). In this meaning, an omniscient god cannot direct evolution, since there is no way he fails.

	19-12-2002 22:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus cause it's not scientific to assume there is. There is no indication that design is part of evolution, so why believe in a designer?

Because it fits into one's religious philosophy? If one can accept evolution as true, I don't the problem with believing it's God's plan if you want. There's no way to show it isn't, after all.

Spiffor:

quote: I think evolution means there are a bunch of failed attempts to make a species more fit to its environment (I may be wrong). In this meaning, an omniscient god cannot direct evolution, since there is no way he fails.

This doesn't mean anything as to the intentions of an omnipotent God. After all, said God could have made the "failures" happen on purpose, for whatever reason. We can't comprehend the will of an omnipotent being, can we?

I'm not a theist, but I see no logical disconnect between accepting evolution and belief in God.

	19-12-2002 22:55									#16
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quote: Because it fits into one's religious philosophy? If one can accept evolution as true, I don't the problem with believing it's God's plan if you want. There's no way to show it isn't, after all.

there is no way to prove pink unicorns don't exist in another galaxy, yet if you believe they do people will look down on you. Same with scientists who look down on people who believe the lack of design in evolution is in fact a design by a God.

	19-12-2002 23:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus there is no way to prove pink unicorns don't exist in another galaxy, yet if you believe they do people will look down on you. Same with scientists who look down on people who believe the lack of design in evolution is in fact a design by a God.

Except that belief in an omnipotent God based on personal faith is widely accepted as an understandable belief. Belief in purple unicorns isn't. There is also a huge legacy of religious tradition that make belief such a God understandable, while the same is not true for the pink unicorns.

No one is pretending the belief in God is scientifically based, but it by no means absurd. And I don't think many scientists "look down" on people who hold such a view, even if they disagree with it. Scientists aren't quite as condescending a bunch as you may think (or, erm, be... ).

Regardless, until scientists are adequately able to explain the origins of the existence of the universe, belief in an omnipotent God who created it all is as reasonable as any other theory.

	19-12-2002 23:04									#18
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Why do people come here to ask such questions?
Apolyton is not the best place to find out about God and the Bible.

I believe that God created the earth.
I think that lifeforms can change in response to enviroments. Even humans can adpate, does not require dna to change, just use our brains.
I dont think that a ape can change into human over millions of years.
Also I don believe that the earth was created in 6 day etheir.

With someone who believe in both Evolution and God, some people say that is a tool that God use to create the Universe.

	19-12-2002 23:05									#19
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let's take a step back for a second.

I didn't say believing in God is looked down upon (though it is at times).

I didn't say believing in God being behind the Big Bang is looked down upon (since there hasn't been given a satisfactory answer by scientists).

But believing that God is behind evolution, is looked down upon.

Why? Because scientist have stated that evolution is WITHOUT design. So given that statement, how can there be a designer who is involved in the evolutionary proces, when there is no design in that proces? You can argue God was behind the Big Bang, and few scientist would be able to opose your view with sound arguments, but if you say that God was directing evolution, you're under attack immediatly.

Thus: believe in God isn't looked down upon. but believe in God being involved in evolution is.

	19-12-2002 23:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I dont think that a ape can change into human over millions of years.

Good thing that evolution doesn't state this happened, either.

	19-12-2002 23:08									#21
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I have study a lot of physics and the laws that govern the Universe. I think that these laws had to be set up by someone. Also too something had to exist before the Universe came into existence that had no begining. Weather that is a big ball of matter, or God. Were did all that matter come from? Were did the energy come from to cause the Universe to expand? Had to come form somewere.

	19-12-2002 23:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus But believing that God is behind evolution, is looked down upon.

I disagree. Maybe by a small minority of elitists.

quote: Why? Because scientist have stated that evolution is WITHOUT design.

This is actually in dispute among scientists. See the reference to the Complexity Theory by Drogue here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...20&pagenumber=9

If true, this would be a reasonable way in which theistic evolutionists could say there is support for their belief. You are operating under the assumption evolution involved random mutation, which is largely not accepted today either.

And again, it's pretty easy for a theist to say that, even if it appeared to be random, the power and will of an omnipotent God is beyond human comprehension, even scientists. The seeming randomness of it could be part of God's plan, it could be that it isn't random at all.

And I would like to see you support your assertion that scientists in general look down on theistic evolutionists. While I think most may disagree with it, I doubt many "look down" on people who believe it. I don't look down on most people who disagree with my beliefs.

I think you're BAMing.

	19-12-2002 23:26									#23
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quote: I think you're BAMing.

read Dawkins "Blind Watchmaker"
or Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea"
or etc, etc, etc


And no, scientists don't look down on the average layman who thinks God directed evolution, simply because you're not debating on the same level. but if you're a qualified biologist, and still think God directed evolution, then few scientists will still take you seriously.

quote: And again, it's pretty easy for a theist to say that, even if it appeared to be random, the power and will of an omnipotent God is beyond human comprehension, even scientists. The seeming randomness of it could be part of God's plan, it could be that it isn't random at all.

well yeah, and you can't beat a solipsist in an argument either. That doesn't mean people don't look down on solipsists.

	19-12-2002 23:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus read Dawkins "Blind Watchmaker" or Dennett's "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" or etc, etc, etc

Telling someone to read a book doesn't make an argument, especially in an online forum. I couls easily tell you to do the same.

quote: And no, scientists don't look down on the average layman who thinks God directed evolution, simply because you're not debating on the same level. but if you're a qualified biologist, and still think God directed evolution, then few scientists will still take you seriously.

Those scientists are then being hypocritical jerks. Disdaining people who believe in theistic evolution is tantamount to disdaining people who believe in God. After all, most people who believe in God, even biologists, believe we are part of a some greater whole and there is a meaning to existence. You can't say there is a metaphysical meaning to our existence if our existence is random chance, now can you?

And again, unless I see support for it, I think the assertion that most scientists look down upon colleagues who believe God had a hand in evolution is baseless.

quote: well yeah, and you can't beat a solipsist in an argument either. That doesn't mean people don't look down on solipsists.

I don't see how it's solipsism to say there is no evidence God didn't have a hand in evolution. It's a matter of being honest, since there is no such proof, or ever will be. That doesn't mean one can't accept other incontrovertable truths regarding evolution/science.

	20-12-2002 02:16									#25
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There's no problem IMHO to assume the existence of a God who created the principles of the Universe - including evolution - and then let the world go according to the laws God imposed...

	20-12-2002 03:11									#26
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So you think a bogus belief in god is there to explain everything? There is no way you can even prove what you are saying. And since there is no way you can prove a single word you say I go with the benefit of the doubt, that there is no god. Try proving it otherwise because I am going with my heart on this one.

	20-12-2002 03:33									#27
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since Fez has joined the naturalist side, I've defected to the theistic side.

go God!

	20-12-2002 03:34									#28
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oh and Fez...since you're so keen on a debate...what ignited the big bang?

	20-12-2002 03:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus oh and Fez...since you're so keen on a debate...what ignited the big bang?

Probably a fart. Maybe there is a god, and he created this whole mess of everything by farting.

No seriously, that is a question I wouldn't know. Well I always been an atheist, and always have held extreme dislike for monotheism (any belief in god).

	20-12-2002 03:39									#30
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so I already won. You can't answer even my first question.