20-12-2002 11:26									#31
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quote: Originally posted by orange No. I meant what I said. If she doesn't like the type of person who would ask such questions, than that's a good thing that I asked, because she realizes "he asks those types of questions. I don't like that. He's no good for me"

but i thought ur the one who rejected her because she doesnt meet ur level of being honest and err unslutty or something to that word.

	20-12-2002 11:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II but i thought ur the one who rejected her because she doesnt meet ur level of being honest and err unslutty or something to that word.

:smacks head:

I was using an if then. It wasn't my actual sitaution. It was in response to Che.

	20-12-2002 11:31									#33
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bah so its one of those, "oh u reject me, well well i hate you too" stuff.. what do you mean if then? would you not reject her whether she rejected you first? I just dont get this.

	20-12-2002 11:35									#34
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Calc...dear...let's just drop it I think there was a fork in the road somewhere, and you went about 1000 miles down the wrong path

	20-12-2002 11:37									#35
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well keepin up with OT's tradition... to go OT on an OT discussion

anyway Im out. too tired to think clearly.. yes that mayeb it. whatever.

	20-12-2002 11:41									#36
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g'night Calc Thanks for trying

	20-12-2002 11:58									#37
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My $0.03CDN:

With regards to the Che vs Orange debate about if he was in his rights to ask about who she was seeing in their "off" period, I'm with Orange on this one.

And I think she should seek professional help as well, and I think orange should distance himself from her so she doesn't bring him down with her.

But I'm hardly a relationship expert, I'm more of a selfserving kind of guy. Maybe she needs your help...but be careful.

What I'm saying is I don't know, I'm not you and I don't really know her and can't tell if she's just trying to bait you to come back. *shrug*

	20-12-2002 12:00									#38
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thanks Asher. I'm mainly looking for perspective on different approaches to handling this. I realize not everyone sees what I see, but it's good to get some feed back, and also to get it out in the open. I feel better not bottling it up inside...

	20-12-2002 12:08									#39
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There are many factors at work here. First and foremost love and history between the two of you. It's natural for you to care for her. And as for what's going on the "self destructive" behavior........quite more like a phase. She's off at college let out of the cage so to speak. She's not with you the in her comfort zone and with one with whom she's so familiar. One tends to try new things and get taken in by people and trends for a time (even the drinking) but it does usually subside.

Not to say that there isn't room for concern and since you two do have such a long history together you will always be linked in some way......know that and accept it.

I'm on both sides of the fence on part of this while I agree if you weren't dating each other then each of your private lives are just that ...........PRIVATE. If she chose to share her episodes with you then she chooses to not have it be private. Again this would be where the history and love comes into play because while you know this logically your heart wrenchs and feels betrayed. It's a no win for both parties. Everyone gets hurt on some level.

It's simple she lied to you about the other guy because she still loves you and you still love her. The quandry here is what leve is it for both of you. Is her's because you're comfortable and safe and ditto for you is she? If you want to know if you were betrayed then yes, on some level you were but not in the true sense of the word. Always let your human or humane side shine through in life.

Care for her help her and be her friend. In that way you've lost nothing but gained everything. You've said in your heart you know you could never be with her again.......one word of advice my little schmoopie.....never say never.

	20-12-2002 15:44									#40
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"unslutty"
Calc- I think the word you are looking for is 'chaste.'

"I forget, but I never forgive. I hold grudges in these matters."

Therein lies the problem. From what I read from your responses, and the questions your friend asks you is that she still loves you on some level. My question to you is how do you still feel about her? Is your relationship important enough to forgive her?

I am not trying to play down how important chastity and honesty are to you, but what about compassion? Has she not confessed the truth and admitted her fault?

"Care for her help her and be her friend. In that way you've lost nothing but gained everything."

Listen to Tia- she knows what she is talking about.

	20-12-2002 16:43									#41
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I agree with Che. Your relationship with her had a lot more to do with your need to be judgemental and in control and her need to be told what to do and judged than with anything romantic. It wasn't healthy, and didn't lead to any real growth for either of you. What she was doing with the other guy was probably better for her, but she is still fixated on pleasing the unpleasable you, so she came back to you and lied. You both need help, and any relationship between you (or for that matter one just like it with another partner) is going to similarly end up in the toilet, because you are both playing roles hammered into your heads at an early age. These roles may have very little to do with who you really are, and thus any relationship based upon them is going to be false.

You are going to have to learn to be much more accepting of people as they are. Your need to idealize your partner is only going to bring you heartache, as no one is going to be able to live up to your expectations, and anyone over time is going to resent your attempts to mold them into someone they are not, ie someone who meets your desire for an ideal partner which cannot exist in reality.

Work on this is crucial, as you are wasting the years dedicated for this sort of growth biologically / psychologically. If you don't change, your future is going to be relationships where you are abusive and you SO cheats on you in retaliation. Or somewhat better but still unacceptable (I assume) you can be alone.

	20-12-2002 18:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I agree with Che. Your relationship with her had a lot more to do with your need to be judgemental and in control and her need to be told what to do and judged than with anything romantic. You both need help, and any relationship between you (or for that matter one just like it with another partner) is going to similarly end up in the toilet, because you are both playing roles hammered into your heads at an early age. These roles may have very little to do with who you really are, and thus any relationship based upon them is going to be false. You are going to have to learn to be much more accepting of people as they are. Your need to idealize your partner is only going to bring you heartache, as no one is going to be able to live up to your expectations, and anyone over time is going to resent your attempts to mold them into someone they are not, ie someone who meets your desire for an ideal partner which cannot exist in reality. It wasn't healthy, and didn't lead to any real growth for either of you. What she was doing with the other guy was probably better for her, but she is still fixated on pleasing the unpleasable you, so she came back to you and lied. Work on this is crucial, as you are wasting the years dedicated for this sort of growth biologically / psychologically. If you don't change, your future is going to be relationships where you are abusive and you SO cheats on you in retaliation. Or somewhat better but still unacceptable (I assume) you can be alone.

Oh c'mon people. I posted a thread to figure out how to deal with a tough situation I've been presented with, and instead I get criticism of how I've acted in a relationship...

Well if I really need to defend myself or my actions, I will. First of all, I don't think anyone is in the position, based on the relatively small amount of information that I've provided on the matter, to make a judgement call about who was or was not 'at fault' in the relationship. What you say, Sikander, is laughable and shows your extreme ignorance on the subject.

Controlling? Hardly. If you think you can make a call on something like that based on my asking a question, one that I asked because I was both concerned about a friend AND concenred about my own heart, than I feel sorry for the next person who comes to you for help, especially if they believe you.

You have no background into the romantic history of our relationship, nor do you know anything else about our actions in the past. If I don't wish to be with someone who is dishonest (this wasn't an isolated incident of dishonesty, as I've hinted at previously) and unchaste, that is my right.

I understand many of you don't place a value on sex. I respect that, and I don't push my beliefs on others. But it is not how I was raised and it is not how I feel on the matter.

What she was "doing" with that other guy was clearly not good for her, not only because she's admitted that to me, but because of her current situation involving possible depression or psychological disorder.

In this relationship I have always been anything BUT unpleasable. She's always met my few standards, and I've never held her to anything. "Demanding"...indeed! If ANYTHING I was the one who couldn't meet her unreasonable standards. When one minor detail of my outsides wasn't in perfect order: I heard about it. No change was good enough.

So yes, I say, how dare you speak in such a way on this topic, and how dare you label me as a future abuser and/or magnet to unfaithful partners. I realize I've put this all on the table, but I in no way asked for a relationship analysis: I asked how to deal with a precarious situation involving a girl who may or may not need serious help.

	20-12-2002 18:23									#43
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just read your 1st post orange...

i'd say try to help her for the sake of the 3 years you spent together

but she will treat you like an ancor 'cause at that point she cant treat herself right...


try to help her, try not to get too emotionally attached, split if it turns ugly and pointless

and thats that really

	20-12-2002 18:27									#44
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well honestly Paiktis at first I couldn't even see the clarity of my first post. In any other situation I would have acted, and after seeing a few posts confirming this, I decided that I should. And I did. Most importantly, I think, is that her safety and livelihood has been secured. In other words, for the time being, i feel that she is ok.

Thanks for your support

	20-12-2002 18:35									#45
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Get another girlfriend, other if you don't want to start dringing heavily too

However if you are a risk taker, and have nothing on your sights, and she tempts you again. Than you are in for a rough ride. But do as you feel. If you feel you should help her... how do you do it? Does she want your help, or does she want you? If you think that she will change because of you? Doubtful, probably not. If you think that you can be in relationship wiht her as she is now. Than go for it. But my first sentence still stands.

	20-12-2002 18:38									#46
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Honestly for some reason I've been attracting every girl I meet as of late: and that's something that has never happened to me before (With relatively little change in my outward appearance) but I just haven't been interested. Too busy, or just a little scarred from the last one, I've decided to lay low for a bit on the dating scene.

I'm certainly not interested in taking her back. I feel betrayed on many levels, and I no longer feel the same unquestionable attraction I once had for this girl. I used to look at her, and no matter what it was, my heart would melt. Those days are gone. I've forgiven a lot of mistakes, and I try not to hold these things against her, but there comes a point where it's no longer desirable to be in such a relationship when, while the highs are bliss, the lows are devastating and painful.

	20-12-2002 18:48									#47
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Wow, I feel like I could not disagree more with Sikander. Not only does he make broad assumptions concerning the two, but his analysis seems such a magnificent and implausable stretch!
That said, I have to agree that it was, as the French say pas de tes ongions (sp) (none of your onions!). think about it, she splits up with you, want to hook back up, and then you tell her that you need a while to think about it. Time to "think it out". This could be take, to a neurotic personality, as a rejection. And because it is now you doing the rejection, not only has she been rejected, but the tables are turned, lending it extra impact! So, dismayed, she feel is not worthy, she suffers from lack of self confidence. This happened to a good female friend of mine: after breaking up with her boyfriend of half a year they broke up and then she lost her virginity to someone she had barely known. And of course, when the possibility of a relationship between the two of you is raised, she would want to conceal her hasty decision.
But come on man, everyone makes mistakes! If you two weren't going out, it's legal in my playbook. It's sad and depressing, yes, but that's where the catch comes in: she's got to make it up to you!

	20-12-2002 19:22									#48
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monolith: i agree that she can do whatever she wants to do. Technically I would argue that she is within her rights to do whatever she wants to do even if I am in a relationship with her. But it is also my right to know the terms of the relationship I am getting into, and be answered honestly when I have questions regarding a possible relationship. I didn't reject her. I grossly simplified things by saying I said I needed to think about it, when in reality, it was long talks basically leading to the ends of "I want to get back together with you too, but right now isn't the best time. I don't intend to date anyone else, but I want to get everything straight in my head before we go back into a relationship"

You're right, everyone does make mistakes, and I've forgiven in the past...I don't know if I can forgive this time, though. I don't think I can. I think my forgiveness has been tapped dry.

	20-12-2002 19:34									#49
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Forgive and forget orange. You obviously care for her at least as a brother would his sister. These type of relationships can blossom over time. I hope you continue to try and help her as a friend would help another. She may not know it but she was testing your love for her. I hope you can past the test. You are on the right path as far as I can tell. Even though you broke up with her you still care. Be patient and see where this ends. And I will be praying for you both so that this situation turns to good. Being her friend now is probably the best help you can give her.

	20-12-2002 19:37									#50
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thanks lincoln. Long time no see.

For the record though, she broke up with me

	20-12-2002 19:53									#51
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...Yes, she broke up with you.

And she regrets her decision.

And she has apologized.

And she wants you back.

Desperately.

Which is obviously WHY she lied to you.

I honestly cannot see anything else that she can do in this situation. She has apparently tried everything she can to make amends and you're not listening.

...So you need to be VERY sure that she isn't suitable for you. Don't be so stiff-necked about this "she lied to me" stuff. If you have other reasons for not wanting her anymore, then we cannot judge what they are.

But on the basis of the reasons you've given so far: frankly, you're being a jerk.

Sorry about that, but that's how it looks from where I'm standing.

	20-12-2002 19:56									#52
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obviously there are other factors, and I don't think not wanting to date someone makes me a jerk, but thanks for your thoughts

	20-12-2002 20:13									#53
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Remove yourself from the people who hold you down and don't allow you to be the person you are capable of being. thats what I always say.


if you are truly worried about this girl.....talk to her and find out whats the matter. Maybe she's just CHANGING..the way everyone does at a certain age. I sure am quite different from when I was 18, and even 21.

People go through stages..and maybe this is one of her stages.

regarding her statement about shooting herself in the head for her actions..tell her that that would be the MOST stupid action she could ever commit. Let her know, that wouldn't punsih herself, just the people who care or have cared for her.




BTW..I didnt read through the whole thread..just the first page.

	20-12-2002 20:16									#54
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thanks Femme. I don't know if you read this part, but I did go to her to make sure she was ok.

	20-12-2002 20:18									#55
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waait waaait..i just read this

quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless ...Yes, she broke up with you. And she regrets her decision. And she has apologized. And she wants you back. Desperately. Which is obviously WHY she lied to you.

there is NEVER any reason to lie in a relationship.

quote: I honestly cannot see anything else that she can do in this situation. She has apparently tried everything she can to make amends and you're not listening.

he heard her side. Ever heard the phrase "forgiven but not forgotten"?

quote: ...So you need to be VERY sure that she isn't suitable for you. Don't be so stiff-necked about this "she lied to me" stuff. If you have other reasons for not wanting her anymore, then we cannot judge what they are.

Apparently he's sure. Its the trust factor. I certainly couldn't see msyelf with a man who lied to me in that manner.Its betrayal.

quote: But on the basis of the reasons you've given so far: frankly, you're being a jerk. Sorry about that, but that's how it looks from where I'm standing.

Question..have you ever had a long term relationship like this? I think he's being VERY fair in his reasoning. In you're mind you can say "you are forgiven" but the heart isnt quite so forgiving no matter how much you believe it is.

	20-12-2002 20:19									#56
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orange..no I didnt read that...but Im glad you did. You are a good man.

	20-12-2002 20:32									#57
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She is an untrustworthy liar.

She'll be nothin' be a emotional strain on you, as your
past experience shows.

Tell her to hit to road, and no "Mr. Nice Guy" this time,make it clear and make it final.

"fool me once, shame on you"
"fool me twice, shame on me"

Scottty

	20-12-2002 20:43									#58
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woooord

	20-12-2002 20:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Tiamat There are many factors at work here. First and foremost love and history between the two of you. It's natural for you to care for her. And as for what's going on the "self destructive" behavior........quite more like a phase. She's off at college let out of the cage so to speak. She's not with you the in her comfort zone and with one with whom she's so familiar. One tends to try new things and get taken in by people and trends for a time (even the drinking) but it does usually subside. Not to say that there isn't room for concern and since you two do have such a long history together you will always be linked in some way......know that and accept it. I'm on both sides of the fence on part of this while I agree if you weren't dating each other then each of your private lives are just that ...........PRIVATE. If she chose to share her episodes with you then she chooses to not have it be private. Again this would be where the history and love comes into play because while you know this logically your heart wrenchs and feels betrayed. It's a no win for both parties. Everyone gets hurt on some level. It's simple she lied to you about the other guy because she still loves you and you still love her. The quandry here is what leve is it for both of you. Is her's because you're comfortable and safe and ditto for you is she? If you want to know if you were betrayed then yes, on some level you were but not in the true sense of the word. Always let your human or humane side shine through in life. Care for her help her and be her friend. In that way you've lost nothing but gained everything. You've said in your heart you know you could never be with her again.......one word of advice my little schmoopie.....never say never.

As long as we're in soul-baring, love-discussing mode...what is the truth about your pregnancy?

	20-12-2002 20:46									#60
	Remove this text

let's not open up that can of worms again, eh? Not on my thread. Ming? A little selective deleting if you please?