 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
orange
|
 |
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
He should try to forgive her first. Especially for the lie. If I was in his position, I would resent being dumped: but not the lie, that was understandable.
A white lie is not "betrayal". Especially when she was apparently fully justified in doing so. Orange hasn't said that he would have taken her back if she had told the truth about having sex with another man. In fact, he's admitted that he doesn't like that.
Therefore she apparently had good reason to lie. |
I feel exactly the opposite. I don't mind being dumped. If she needs to be alone or date to prioritize - fine by me. What I do mind is being lied to when I'm ready to reform those bonds and start over again. Relationships that begin on lies are built on swampy ground, and quickly fall apart. This was no exception. I don't consider it a 'white lie', and I do consider it betrayal. If my decision to date someone is based on the answer to a question, and I don't get the honest answer, it doesn't matter what the lie was meant to cover - not only is it a lie (dishonesty) but then the reason I didn't want to date her again in the first place is still there. Double whammy. Agreed that, if she had told the truth, I probably wouldn't have dated her again - but at least it would have been honest and I could respect her as a person and a friend. Now I can't even trust her. Do you see where I am coming from?
quote:
This is where the head should rule the heart.
If this doesn't happen: OK, fair enough. But "I won't take her back because she lied to me" sounds like an attempt to invent a reason for refusing to take her back.
By itself, it's not a good enough reason. The actual dumping might be: if she dumped him once, she might do it again, that is a reason not to trust her. But the lie isn't. Her motive was good.
If you just want to dump her and move on, don't make excuses. If you're bitter and twisted about the fact that the girl of your dreams could dump you and have sex with another man: face up to what your reason actually is. |
As I've said so many times before, this was not an isolated incident. A lie I could forgive - I've done it before. This is not the first time I have been lied to on a rather large matter such as this - and last time I was told it wouldn't happen again because of the pain it caused.
I'm not 'dumping' her as I'm not in a relationship with her. I've long sinced 'moved on' away from the relationship, but that doesn't mean I want to date other people at the moment.
And yes, a big portion of my pain is exactly your last statement. The girl of my dreams dumped me and had sex with someone she just met and wasn't dating and lied to me about it. I faced up to that long ago, so your point here is moot.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
 |
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
What I find interesting is the split between younger and older (i.e., more experienced) posters on this issue. We've been there, loved, lost, and learned we were damned idiot fools. Now we see you doing the same stupid **** we did, and you think you know better. Then again, we were the same way.
I still stand by my original statement. What she did while you two were not going together isn't your business. You had no right to expect her to remain chaste and wait for you to decide what you wanted to do. You were a total ass. Since it was clear that you wouldn't take her back if she was A) honest or B) told you it wasn't your business, then what she should have done was realized you weren't the man for her. But, like you, she thought with her heart and not with her head, and so she lied to placate an unreasonable potential partner.
As for what she's now going through, I would call that growth. She's leaving behind childhood and becoming an adult. She's changing. I wasn't a punk in high school. I didn't have sex in high school. I didn't drink in high school. I was or did all those things in college. Oh my gosh, she's wearing a hoodie!?!  Wow, what an amazing symptom of depression.  Ooh, she's drinking. Like drinking isn't the number one activity in college. Ooh, she's having sex. Yeah, well most of us aren't time-warped Victorians who think showing an ankle is a sign of poor moral hygene.
If you honestly think she has problems, ask another RA to look into it, and step away from the situation. You aren't objective.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
orange
|
|
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What I find interesting is the split between younger and older (i.e., more experienced) posters on this issue. We've been there, loved, lost, and learned we were damned idiot fools. Now we see you doing the same stupid **** we did, and you think you know better. Then again, we were the same way. |
My age means nothing here, and neither does anyone elses.
quote:
I still stand by my original statement. What she did while you two were not going together isn't your business. |
And I stand by mine. If I am to enter into a relationship I should be aware of its terms. I have the right to ask that question, or any other questions I feel necessary to make such a decision, such as "are you a smoker?" or "do you have any STDs?", and she has the right not to answer, decline comment, or tell the truth.
Technically she also has the right to lie, but then I am fully justified in being mad at her for lying. If she doesn't want to answer the question - fine. But then I can decide whether or not I want to date her.
quote:
You had no right to expect her to remain chaste and wait for you to decide what you wanted to do. You were a total ass. |
I can expect whatever I damn well want to based on my knowledge of her character. We all have expectations of others, especially those we know. There is nothing wrong with me expecting that the girl wouldn't have sex with a guy she just met.
quote:
Since it was clear that you wouldn't take her back if she was A) honest or B) told you it wasn't your business, then what she should have done was realized you weren't the man for her. But, like you, she thought with her heart and not with her head, and so she lied to placate an unreasonable potential partner. |
Bingo. If she doesn't want a man who wouldn't take her back based on what she did, then I'm not the man for her. I'm quite ok with that if that's the case. But it's not. She wanted me back regardless. She didn't think with her heart, she thought with her mind, and it was marked by greed and a total lack of consideration in regards to my feelings. She led me on becuase she wanted me back, not caring that I wouldn't want her back now that she was 'damaged goods'.
quote:
As for what she's now going through, I would call that growth. She's leaving behind childhood and becoming an adult. She's changing. I wasn't a punk in high school. I didn't have sex in high school. I didn't drink in high school. I was or did all those things in college. Oh my gosh, she's wearing a hoodie!?! Wow, what an amazing symptom of depression. Ooh, she's drinking. Like drinking isn't the number one activity in college. Ooh, she's having sex. Yeah, well most of us aren't time-warped Victorians who think showing an ankle is a sign of poor moral hygene. |
You're a heartless asshole, Che, and obviously not the intelligent person I once thought you were: not because you've called me the things you've called me, but you obviously don't realize that people who go through drastic changes such as the ones I've listed in this thread in a short time period are generally not doing so because they've become more open minded. The changes I've listed, in the time span of two months, are characteristic of psychological or mental disorders. My concern for another human being, regardless of my past with her, is what was of issue in this thread because of the very signs I listed. The reason I asked for advice from Apolyton was because I didn't know if I would be overstepping my bounds by suggesting she seek help.
I'm glad the vast majority of you, unlike Che, realized that and gave me the support I needed to make the right decision.
Frankly, I don't give a damn what your lifestyle is, or what choices you've made in the past, or what you think of sex. I don't care about the value (or lack thereof) you place on these things, because you're not me. I don't think there's anything wrong with respecting or desiring chastity, if not virginity, and class with women I date. These are my values, and I hardly consider myself living in the Victorian Era for having them.
quote:
If you honestly think she has problems, ask another RA to look into it, and step away from the situation. You aren't objective. |
This is what you could have said in the first place, and I would have said "ok, thank you". But instead you had to be a know-it-all. As if you could really analyze my role in a relationship you know infinitely little about based on a few sentences on a web forum.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sprayber
|
 |
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
What I find interesting is the split between younger and older (i.e., more experienced) posters on this issue. We've been there, loved, lost, and learned we were damned idiot fools. Now we see you doing the same stupid **** we did, and you think you know better. Then again, we were the same way.
I still stand by my original statement. What she did while you two were not going together isn't your business. You had no right to expect her to remain chaste and wait for you to decide what you wanted to do. You were a total ass. Since it was clear that you wouldn't take her back if she was A) honest or B) told you it wasn't your business, then what she should have done was realized you weren't the man for her. But, like you, she thought with her heart and not with her head, and so she lied to placate an unreasonable potential partner.
As for what she's now going through, I would call that growth. She's leaving behind childhood and becoming an adult. She's changing. I wasn't a punk in high school. I didn't have sex in high school. I didn't drink in high school. I was or did all those things in college. Oh my gosh, she's wearing a hoodie!?! Wow, what an amazing symptom of depression. Ooh, she's drinking. Like drinking isn't the number one activity in college. Ooh, she's having sex. Yeah, well most of us aren't time-warped Victorians who think showing an ankle is a sign of poor moral hygene.
If you honestly think she has problems, ask another RA to look into it, and step away from the situation. You aren't objective. |
I never thought I'd say this che but we just have to let the young ones live their life and make their mistakes. We can tell em but they have to lern for themselves. 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
chegitz guevara
|
|
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by orange
My age means nothing here, and neither does anyone elses. |
The hell it doesn't. I'm sorry, but regardless of what you may think you know, you're still very new at the whole relationship thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. But consider that we have more experince in relationships, have seen a lot of this stuff, not only through our own experiences but watched our friends go through it, and then people a little younger than us go through it, etc. You would show a little wisdom in listening to more experienced people in this.
quote:
And I stand by mine. If I am to enter into a relationship I should be aware of its terms. I have the right to ask that question, or any other questions I feel necessary to make such a decision, such as "are you a smoker?" or "do you have any STDs?", and she has the right not to answer, decline comment, or tell the truth. |
Two different questions. Certainly you have a right to ask about things that affect you, such as smoking or diseases. A person's relationship with another person just isn't any of your damn business, unless they chose to volunteer it.
quote:
There is nothing wrong with me expecting that the girl wouldn't have sex with a guy she just met. |
Yes there is. She isn't your daughter. She isn't your girlfriend. You had no claims on her actions when you weren't dating. Regardless of what went on before bwtween you two, once she broke it off, any claim you had on her actions was gone. It's her body, not yours.
quote:
I wouldn't want her back now that she was 'damaged goods'. |
That's the most telling statement of all.
quote:
You're a heartless asshole, Che, and obviously not the intelligent person I once thought you were: [snip] but you obviously don't realize that people who go through drastic changes such as the ones I've listed in this thread in a short time period are generally not doing so because they've become more open minded. The changes I've listed, in the time span of two months, are characteristic of psychological or mental disorders. |
They are also characteristic of someone doing new things. When people become depressed, they tend to turn to habits they know, not entirely new ones. Nothing you've said indicates that she's depressed, with the exception of her comment that you were the only one who ever really cared about her. Those are also the characteristics of someone getting into drugs. They are alo the characteristics of someone discovering they are gay.
I'm not being heartless about it either. But I remember too well lots of well-meaning people getting in people's faces when they were simply discovering who they were. I've also seen people do what you what you describe and have serious mental illness. One of my friends ended up in an institution, out of quite a few people who went from being clean cut kids to freaks.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Six Thousand Year Old Man
|
 |
Ad Rock
Aug 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
Orange,
I'm not going to judge you on whether you have any right to judge her or question her. You have relationships on your own terms, and when/if those terms stop working for you, you'll change them. If they keep working, you won't change them. End of story.
Don't get back together with her to save her or help her or because you feel sorry for her. Been there, done that, bad idea. When you realize she's not for you, and you will, the breakup will be a killer. And if she does have emotional problems, you don't want to deal with that. Really, no one should feel they have to take that on.
I agree with at least one of che's suggestions. Get another RA to look into her health. You aren't objective.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
different generations value different things
I am sure that you Che, value different things than your father and/or grandfather (I would be pretty certain) and if not them, than at least one of their generations
likewise it would make since that those younger will also value different things
I doubt if you liked your fathers or grandfather's generation telling you what to value, why would a younger generation (Orange) want you to tell them what to value
what to value is the most important part of who we are and the choice of what to value is one of the most precious parts of being human
so don't constrain the younger generations
and while I picked out Che, I mean the rest of you also (who disagree with Orange's values)
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Jon Miller
|
|
if there si another RA you trust than that would be a good idea
just someone else does you know good, since how do you know that they are objective?
Jon Miller
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Lazarus and the Gimp
|
 |
Whale-raping abomination
Aug 2000
time: 05:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by orange
She has gone from a straight A student to a D student. Her fashion and music sense has drastically changed, and she now wears hoodies and layers, loose clothes, has cut her hair shorter, and listens to depressing music. I almost did not recognize her. She joined a sorority last semester, which she used to vocally HATE not long ago, and this semester I know from others that she has engaged in heavy drinking (very very unlike her) and partying. Not to mention the fact that earlier she pretty much had sex with a guy she barely knew (also very very unlike her) .......She still appears happy, her soft spoken cheery voice unchanged, but I still wonder if it is right to take action.
|
This is striking a discordant note, but she just sounds like a regular girl student to me.
Hell, change the gender references around and add "Taking a shitload of drugs" and you've got my university days pretty much summed up.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
orange
|
|
It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:24
|
|
Thanks Sprayber...very good points...I will consider them (and others) while I'm checking out rooms tonight.
I very much trust her building's RA, so I think I may alert her. She would certainly be objective.
Che -
quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The hell it doesn't. I'm sorry, but regardless of what you may think you know, you're still very new at the whole relationship thing, and there's nothing wrong with that. But consider that we have more experince in relationships, have seen a lot of this stuff, not only through our own experiences but watched our friends go through it, and then people a little younger than us go through it, etc. You would show a little wisdom in listening to more experienced people in this. |
I don't care what you've been through or what your friends have been through, they haven't been through exactly what I'm going through, and that is why, regardless of your age and experience, you aren't in a better position to make a call on this than I am or someone who knows us in real life and the rest of the story is. I understand your points, but you've been nothing but aggressive from the start, and you've assaulted me with very little knowledge on the subject.
quote:
Two different questions. Certainly you have a right to ask about things that affect you, such as smoking or diseases. A person's relationship with another person just isn't any of your damn business, unless they chose to volunteer it. |
I would ask her if she even if we never dated at all due to the fact that she was my best friend at the time. If I noticed sudden changes I might ask what her relationship with another guy she just met is (who, frankly, I discovered, is a real ******* in the way he deals with women...she just found out too, which is why she no longer wants anything to do with him) because I'm worried about her well being. Having sex with near strangers can be dangerous, not only because of the STDs or pregnancy if done without protection, but also because it leaves you very vulnerable to attack (especially being a woman, no offense feminists)
quote:
Yes there is. She isn't your daughter. She isn't your girlfriend. You had no claims on her actions when you weren't dating. Regardless of what went on before bwtween you two, once she broke it off, any claim you had on her actions was gone. It's her body, not yours. |
There is a difference between 'tolerate' and 'expect'. Expect, the way I used it, was about assumptions. I would assume she wouldn't have sex with a guy she just met, just as I'd assume she wouldn't jump off the Golden Gate bridge. Besides, being her father or boyfriend doesn't give me the right to govern her actions either. As you said, it's her body not mine...but that does NOT mean that I can't decide not to persue a relationship with her because of how she treats herself or acts. I wouldn't want to date her if she was a heavy drinker or smoker either, that's my preference, and it's about her health and mine - just like sleeping around is.
quote:
I wouldn't want her back now that she was 'damaged goods'. |
quote:
That's the most telling statement of all. |
I put it in quotes because it's not how I feel. It's how you were painting me to be.
quote:
You're a heartless asshole, Che, and obviously not the intelligent person I once thought you were: [snip] but you obviously don't realize that people who go through drastic changes such as the ones I've listed in this thread in a short time period are generally not doing so because they've become more open minded. The changes I've listed, in the time span of two months, are characteristic of psychological or mental disorders. |
quote:
They are also characteristic of someone doing new things. When people become depressed, they tend to turn to habits they know, not entirely new ones. |
That's not true, certainly not in all cases, I would argue not even in most cases. Depression is just one aspect of concern in all of this...there are many other disorders that these abrupt changes point to.
quote:
Nothing you've said indicates that she's depressed, with the exception of her comment that you were the only one who ever really cared about her. Those are also the characteristics of someone getting into drugs. They are alo the characteristics of someone discovering they are gay. |
This really shows you don't know her. If you held a conversation with her for 30 minutes you'd find out just how depressed she's become. But you don't know this because you HAVEN'T spoken to her at all, OR me about how she speaks and how she carries herself. She's become quite depressed in the way she talks. Everything has a gloomy, albeit not morbid, overtone. Everything is about things falling apart, family, friends, her relationship with me, school, grades, who she once was, etc.
quote:
I'm not being heartless about it either. But I remember too well lots of well-meaning people getting in people's faces when they were simply discovering who they were. |
No one has gotten in anyone's face. I've been quite gentle and soft spoken throughout this whole matter. I've voiced my concern and let her know that I was worried, and that's all. She assured me that she is ok, and I left it at that.
The reason I think you're being heartless is that you completely attacked me from the beginning, and you STILL don't have an iota of ground to stand on with any of your arguments except what you or your friends have gone through! This is not a cookie cutter situation, and I'd advise you not to treat it as one, especially when I not once asked for help with dealing with her romantically. That's what's heartless about it.
quote:
I've also seen people do what you what you describe and have serious mental illness. One of my friends ended up in an institution, out of quite a few people who went from being clean cut kids to freaks. |
And this is what I'm worried about. I'd rather not see it happen to her, or anyone!
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
20-12-2002 20:48
|
|