20-12-2002 23:33									#1
	Moo3's Death by a Thousand Cuts Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.ina-community.com/forums...threadid=244442

Upgrade is out

[19:24] [mmurray821] You can not upgrade your ships with new tech, but have to buy new ones?
[19:24] [Chantz] yes
[19:24] [Chantz] sorry, i tried like *heck* to get that in
[19:25] [Chantz] you can stamp out new design based off of current ships templates quite easily
[19:25] [Chantz] and obsolete and scrap and such
[19:25] [Chantz] new designs
[19:26] [Chantz] but yep
[19:26] [mmurray821] I saw in the guide you get 50% back of the original build price back with scrap
[19:26] [Chantz] yep
[19:26] [Thalanor] wow
[19:26] [mmurray821] Well, it doesn't take long to build ships, does it?
[19:27] [Forgiven] long is relative always ;p
[19:27] [Chantz] no, not very long; again, think grand strategy, you can *really* speed up ship design by overdriving the military build que
[19:27] [mmurray821] Then it really isn't that big a loss for upgrade then
[19:27] [Chantz] sorry, ship construction


Now wtf? First the colors, naming stars, not that important.. but I think refitting ships is PRETTY DARN IMPORTANT. Why wasn`t this included in that cut list? How are we supposed to carry over experienced crews now?!

Xentax says to expect to see a patch though. Thank god.

Last edited by RolandtheMad on 21-12-2002 at 03:40

	20-12-2002 23:34									#2
	NEW CUT LIST Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think we should demand a new cut list! All these things that 'just happen not to be in this one' suck. Anything that was in a previous game that isn`t in this one is a cut.

	20-12-2002 23:39									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

do you think you might be able to move good leader to new ships? I wouldn't be supprised if you just lost a great leader because you scraped his ship, remember you don't get to choose where your leaders are placed.

	20-12-2002 23:48									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

[erupt]
This is insane! Every day I read about something new being cut out of the design. What are they going to give us, MOO .5?!?!?
[/erupt]

*sigh* The'd better release the game before we find out about any of the other missing features or this baby's gonna rot on the shelves...

	20-12-2002 23:50									#5
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My reaction exatcly! Now it wouldn`t be so bad if it were just one or two things inconveniently forgotten but every time you turn around there is a new cut!

	20-12-2002 23:55									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

This is bad, bad news indeed. But upgrading was a pain in the posterior in Moo2 as well before they patched it so that you could refit by class.

Nevertheless, I'm starting to think of holding off on that buy until I see the patch. Seems to be a lot of small, nagging issues...

	21-12-2002 00:07									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It was a pain to refit, and often not worth it. I could usually hold off a fleet while my new builds were gaining experience in an Academy system. There were times when I HAD to refit, though. And if I did scrap a ship, I at least moved the leader someplace else. I know they posted a cut list somewhere (I never saw it) but I think I'd be more interested in a feature list. It's beginning to look as if it would be the shorter of the two lists.

	21-12-2002 01:36									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://www.ina-community.com/forums...threadid=244454

Xentax - There are no bombs in MOO3.

	21-12-2002 02:54									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, you CAN use missles in their place. With all the major functions they've cut out, why not cut something small? You know, just pour the lemon juice into the gaping stomach wound...

	21-12-2002 03:00									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree. I don`t really care about the fact that there are no bombs now, but I am not happy about all these small cuts that are appearing. I`m becoming very wary of all this. I wonder what else will be revealed?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=1556926&t=3252

Last edited by RolandtheMad on 21-12-2002 at 03:52

	21-12-2002 03:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No refit, ugly. I remember getting Ascendency and finally being able to upgrade my ships. Then Moo2 allowed this, I loved that feature.

	21-12-2002 04:38									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I absolutely can not beleive that Upgrading ships is out...!!!!

I know that the party line will be.... [anoying voice]"but you just need to beef up you ship build queue"[/annoyning voice]... This does not cut it. To quote "[19:24] [Chantz] sorry, i tried like *heck* to get that in ". Obvioulsy HE recognized the need for this! But ill bet it ended up on the floor because it would have been dificult. Just because something is dificult to pull off does not mean that it couldn't or should not be done!

All allong i have been hearing how the game is delayed one date after the next - i was one of the idiots who paid for the game in full in advance to ensure i got it right away. These kind of things i can live with becuse as Chantz keeps on saying it so they can "make the absolute best game"....

I can not concieve of a single legit reson to scrapp the retrofitting of ships other than the dificulty or too late to program for such (which is a cop out). As far as I am concerned now, they are not delaying to put their best foot forward - they are delaying because this is just another poorly managed Software Project.

.... Ok now that I got that out of my system... I do hardware and software design so if there is one thing that pisses me off is poor code for all the wrong reasons.

I am begging and pleading with someone to tell me that there is a legitimate game play reson for pulling Upgrading out of the game so i can make an public appology for this tantrum!

	21-12-2002 05:15									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Lame.

Last edited by Bane99 on 21-12-2002 at 05:21

	21-12-2002 07:49									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i remain blissfully unaware of features that have been in the previous game that i'm going to be missing out on. and the more i think about it, the better i like the idea, i was extremely dissapointed by civ3 because of all the stuff i expected to be in the game that wasn't. now i'm going to get a game where i have almost no expectations, (beyond that it should be fun) I think i'll be much happier this way

	21-12-2002 08:11									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by H Tower i remain blissfully unaware of features that have been in the previous game that i'm going to be missing out on. and the more i think about it, the better i like the idea, i was extremely dissapointed by civ3 because of all the stuff i expected to be in the game that wasn't. now i'm going to get a game where i have almost no expectations, (beyond that it should be fun) I think i'll be much happier this way

Lucky, lucky man. My disappointment is slowly dissolving my desire to buy this game...

	21-12-2002 08:25									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I will take the disappointment as I would not like to have to give back all the fun I have had and still have with Moo/Moo2.

	21-12-2002 08:37									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

To continue my rant...

Many moons ago i posted a message as Purple Sage on the original MoO3 forums which requested a streamlined ship upgrade/retrofiting system. In fact I got a pesonal reply from Alan E on the matter, indicating that this was definately on their must do lists...

Unfortunately I have rebuilt my PC since then so i have no proof of this.

Further, take a look at Space Empires IV... A very simple but effective game in the same genre as MoO. This game had a beautiful system for retrofits that did not have me spending half an hour every 5 turns or so as i tried to encorporate a new and necessary tech into my fleets - as done in MoO2.

If I am going on a little much on the subject, it is only because I find it hard to belive that the quality and quantity of resources that were/are available to IG could not succeed at what ever was established when they blew up the original game design. Surely there must be a way to make this work.

	21-12-2002 08:38									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I should clarify that the luck involved is not having to deal with the empty feeling inside as you watch your hopes and dreams for something you wanted so badly to be perfection in form dashed to the floor.

I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear in the previous post. This cross I've been dragging around sometimes gets in my way when I'm typing...

	21-12-2002 13:23									#19
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No refitting?

This vexes me. I am vexed.

	21-12-2002 13:57									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If we cannot refit our ships, do we keep the old ones instead of having them all destroyed like in MOO? It could add a sense of realism since it would be cheaper to build a new Leviathan than to rip off all the armor, hull, the Ultra large spinal Phasor beam and build it up to to the new type.
For example, we cannot drag a F-15 and convert it to a F-16.

Last edited by Crostoneman on 21-12-2002 at 14:02

	21-12-2002 14:22									#21
	Put an end to popups!

I didn`t find the F 16 analogy very good. I liken space ships more to navy vessels - which are alike because of their scale and function. They don`t call them space SHIPs for nothing. Even then until some kind of stellar mass production became available it would be totally absurd to scrape a functional ship because it is outdated.

I also don`t think it would be a cheaper to build a new leviathan than to refit it. Remember these are massive vessels - it is the carrier, not the fighter.

	21-12-2002 15:32									#22
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I“m a bit dissappointed, that they“ve left refitting out.

But on the other Hand I must agree with Crostoneman and Roland, that it may be more timeconsuming and costly to refit an existing ship than to build a completely new one.
And besides this, if I can“t refit my ships, my enemys (i.e. all other existing races in the universe ) also won“t be able to do it.

But one important question remains:
What about Ships currently being constructed?
For example I have one Leviathan in the Building queue which need 4 turns to be completed and now I discover the technology for Level 1000 MEGA-BLOCK-ALL-Shields.
Will I be able to change the ship currently built to a new template which sports the new technology without loosing all the construction points and time already spent on building the now obsolete Design?

	21-12-2002 17:15									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Realism is beautiful is a simulator. In a game, however, fun is the only parameter that counts.

And space vessels are more like the navy, anyway. Surface vessels get regular serious overhauls during their service spans. Sometimes with very significant systems upgrades.

They taking this out does not make me happy at all.

	21-12-2002 19:42									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Even the only reusable spacecraft we've got enjoy major updates every few years.
The Space Shuttles have been refitted with all kinds of things: new computers, new cockpits displays, new avionics, new engines, and more are foreseen...

	22-12-2002 00:55									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

No, but you could make a new designation of say F-15A and have upgraded computers and missiles, ECCM and the like and that is what they sometimes do.
Moo2 did not let you make an upgrade of a BB to DS, only a newer BB.

	22-12-2002 22:04									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I suppose I can understand the removal of refiting. We're supposed to be going to have hundreds of ships right? So, they probably just decided it'd be too much micromanagement to upgrade your ships.

Still, its definetly going to be an irritating cut. In moo2 I constantly refit my ships to keep them in top form, its a lot cheaper than building new ones.