26-12-2002 21:28									#31
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[ooc]
o.k., using my handy dandy chart, I've figured the following for the next set of worker orders that Oliverfa has posted, which follows:

Roading of Shielded Grassland (Madrid #18)
1 turn move
3 turns Road
----
4 turns total

Move to River to start Irrigation
4 turns move
4 turns Irrigate
----
8 turns total

Move to first Cows to Irrigate & Road
1 turn move
4 turns Irrigate
3 turns Road
----
8 turns total

Move to other Cows to Irrigate & Road
1 turn move
4 turns Irrigate
3 turns Road
----
8 turns total

Total time is 28 turns

Here is my suggestion for the working of those tiles.

Roading of Shielded Grassland (Madrid #18)
1 turn move
3 turns Road
----
4 turns total (same, no change)

Move to first Cow to build a road
3 turns move
3 turns Road
----
6 turns total

Move to River to Irrigate & Road
1 turn move
4 turns Irrigate
3 turns Road
----
8 turns total

Move back to first Cows to Irrigate
No move penalty - road
4 turns Irrigate
----
4 turns total

Move to other Cows to Irrigate & Road
1 turn move
4 turns Irrigate
3 turns Road
----
8 turns total

Total time is 30 turns, only 2 turns more but you have added a 3 turn item and can go from there.

E_T

[EDIT] I can sometimes be a dunce. I TOTALLY forgot that there is a River right next to the mountains and you won't have to go to the other river to get that water. THat's what I get for not not haveing the game to reference these things when I make some of these posts...

Last edited by E_T on 03-01-2003 at 11:33

	28-12-2002 18:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by E_T [ooc] o.k., using my handy dandy chart, I've figured the following for the next set of worker orders that Oliverfa has posted, which follows:

Señor Tamali, thanks for your analysis. I'm sorry I couldn't have time to check it in depth until now.

Just one aclaration. I wasn't willing to irrigate to shielded grassland, but the normal one on the SE of the cow (presumably SW of Pamplone if its finally founded at the place you suggested) because my intention is to give Pamplona an extra food as soon as posible.

The point is: What is more urgent for us? To increase our food production as soon as posible, or to increase our commerce production as soon as posible? I would highly value comments about that. Specially from Señor Ruby_Maser, the Pamplona's governor.

	02-01-2003 23:34									#33
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I've done some further research as to worker efficencies and I've found that it is better to have the 1 worker build the roads (on FLAT) while you have 2 workers for Mining & Irrigation.

Example: 2 Workers in a stack, 1 turn move, 2 turns to Road, 3 turns total. In 12 turns, they have Roaded 4 tiles.

BUT

2 workers, each on separate tiles, 1 turn move, 3 turns to Road, 4 turns total. Each of them will Road 3 tiles in 12 turns, but they both will have Roaded 6 tiles in that 12 turn timeframe.

The Roading of Hills, & Forest, should be done with 2 Workers. The Roading of Mountains & Jungle should be done with 3 Workers (although 2 will still get it done, just not as fast). That way, you still get the 3 turn time of completion for a Road.


Infrastructure that is next to a River:

Because the River already provides you with a trade bonus, the workers should do the other things first (Irrigate or Mine) before Roading. this gets you the improvement for the city to use first, then adds the extra trade afterwards.

E_T

Last edited by E_T on 03-01-2003 at 11:37

	03-01-2003 01:19									#34
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Very good. Thanks E_T.

	03-01-2003 01:55									#35
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Sorry if I've missed something, but since the cows of pamplona are on grassland tiles, not on plain tiles,
we could use them to balance the ratio food/production of Pamplona. If these tiles were mined instead of irrigated, we could have 3 food and 2 shields in each, and allow a good developement of the city in order to produce settlers in a good amount of time, assuming we let the city reach the 4 pop size.

Anyone could explain if I'm wrong ?


E_T your chart is very useful, I've printed out it

	03-01-2003 06:58									#36
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The question as to what we will do, i.e. Irrigate or Mine, depends on how we plan to use the tiles that are present.

Do we want to:
Use the Forrest?
Use the Gold that is in the mountian for trade (and eventually have the mountain mined)?

These are the Questions that we need to ask as we start the PW around Pamplona, at least for the 30 to 50 turns of game time.

E_T

	03-01-2003 07:06									#37
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just to let everybody know

A Cow on Grassland has the Following: 4 Food, 1 Shield & 0 Trade (unless next to a River).

In Despot, anything (food, shields, trade) that has a tile amount of OVER 2, has -1 added to it. That is why Irrigating a plain Grassland tile doesn't get any noticable Improvement while in Despotism, because its would be: 2 + 1 (irrigate) - 1 (despot).

So, under Despotism, the above Cow will have 3 food, 1 shield & 0 trade. If you either Irrigate or Mine that tile, you add 1 to what ever and you will have the effect.

E_T

	03-01-2003 07:24									#38
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I say irrigate the cows of Pamplona because we have many other sources of shields in its radius. If we get fast population growth, we can get the settlers out faster.

	03-01-2003 07:29									#39
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quote: Originally posted by E_T A Cow on Grassland has the Following: 4 Food, 1 Shield & 0 Trade (unless next to a River).

yeah, I found this out you can up its food production to 4 with irrigation while I was running scenarios. I PMed Señor Oliverfa and asked him to have his slaves irrigate and road the cow bonus west of Pamplona. I may ask to have the second one mined, but that will come later on.

Anyway, growth is first. I'm gonna request it be slowed temporarily though right when Pamplona hits size 2. Utilizing the forest tile in combination with the cattle will put Pamplona on the fast track to a spearman as soon as the warriors are done.

	03-01-2003 08:30									#40
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We could always be different and mine the cow while irrigating the gold

	03-01-2003 14:45									#41
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I agree with the general feeling that irrigating the cows is the highest priority, so I'm sending the workers the the western cow to have it irrigated as señor Ruby_Maser asked.

I also agree with señor pikesfan that there are other tiles more susceptible of being mined other than the second cow. We should discuse this now to have a formed opinion about that when the time comes.

Just to make it clear again, I'm totally against using the workers to open the goodie hut. Not only they have lot of work to do, but also they would be lost if the hut is populated by barbarians. The risk of being next when the hut is open can be taken, because they can always retreat to Pamplona.

	24-01-2003 03:20									#42
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What to do next with the slaves

The work at the cows near Pamplone will be soon finished, and I need to figure what will be the best to do next.

At the present moment Madrid and Pamplona have enough irrigated and mined lands near them. That's not the case of Barcelona, but it is too expensive to improve the terrain next it city now.

It looks like the next city will be founded near the horses north from Pamplona. So one feasible option would be to make a road to these horses, and next go back and road from Pamplona to Madrid. When the new slaves unit pop in Madrid, they will continue the road from the other end and the two slaves unit would find in the middle.

The second option would be to start roading from Pamplona to Madrid inmediately and forget about the horses until a bit later.

Thoughts?

	24-01-2003 03:29									#43
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Sounds like you need a timeline comparison. Example:

Plan A (road to horses)
will take x turns, and commence road to Madrid on turn Y

Plan B (road to Madrid)
will take x turns, assistance from Madrid Worker expected on turn Y

This will depend in part on when you can expect the new Madrid worker. Consult Señor Clemente's analysis for the different possible availability dates for the next worker.

I would also like to know how well the theoretical plan A would coincide with the completion of the Pampona settler, and if you are planning on requesting an escort unit for the worker along the way to the horses.

	24-01-2003 04:14									#44
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Since we only have one worker, we should send it out to the horses. The tunnel through the mountains will have to wait for two workers, or more. Didn’t someone give us calculations on how many turns it would need for how many workers?

	24-01-2003 04:23									#45
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Maybe for the time being we could build a road NE of Pamplona so that when we build the Mountain road or tunnel it will automatically link Pamplona.

	24-01-2003 04:57									#46
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9 turns to build a road in the mountains

Eta Tamali

	24-01-2003 05:12									#47
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Oliverfa,

The tiles it would be nice to improve near Madrid (if you get around to it - this is NOT critical):

- Road of game at #5
- Road of forest at #4
- Road of forest at #14
- Road and Irrigation of shielded grassland at #18

Later on....
- Road and mine of grassland at #7
- Mine and Road of various hills tiles, chopping down forests, etc.

For Madrid, it's FAR FAR FAR more critical that we get a luxury connected by road than anything above other than maybe some of the roads (and those can be done together, roads and roads )

	25-01-2003 18:09									#48
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I like the idea of building a road to the horses, also connecting cities... Then we wouldn't have to worry so much about the threatening situation, cause we would be less likely to be attacked when we have built just one horseman...

You see, the baddies will know we have them, and that we can defend effectively!

	25-01-2003 19:05									#49
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.... I suspect the psychological effect of us having a mounted force, to be demoralizing anyone from declaring war in the near future.



Also we need to connect the road network to at least one luxury before our cities reaches 5, or so. (I guess it was 5 so on monarch level? ) I'd love to have one of those gems too. :$

When our slaves finish their critical tasks, we can have them imprisoned into outposts up north, or liberate them into cities for settler prod....

	25-01-2003 20:36									#50
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'd rather have them build a road to the spices for more delicious squid. For sure, gems make squid look beautiful, but a beautiful squid and an ugly squid taste the same in your mouth and feel the same in your stomach, and look the same afterwards, as the Royal Chamber Pot Cleaner can attest to.

	26-01-2003 00:27									#51
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I was discussing this with Togas Last night. Once the worker in Madrid is built, which will be after the Temple is completed, then this is what will most likely be done (that is, if the slave master agrees):

1) move to and road Madrid #5 (the game). 1 turn to move, 6 turns to road - 7 turns total.
Increases the trade for Madrid and starts the connection to Barcelona.

2) move to and cut the forrest at tile #14, irrigating it afterwards. 1 turn to move, 10 turns to cut, 4 turns to irrigate - 15 turns total.
We might also road that tile to, if so, add 3 more turns.

3) move to Barcelona #9, Road & Irrigate. 1 turn to move, 3 turns to road, 4 turns to Irrigate - 8 turns total.
At this time, Barcelona will be able to make use of the irrigated tile for growth. It might be better to irrigate first, for the growth, but the road would give it increased trade sooner. This will allow it to support a pop of 4 (without a harbor)

4) move to Barcelona #1, Road & Irrigate. 1 turn to move, 3 turns to road, 4 turns to Irrigate - 8 turns total.
Once the road is built, Barcelona will be connected to the trade network and it's Corruption/Waste will be reduced. The Irrigation again for it's growth. This will allow it to support a pop of 5 (without a harbor).

5) move to Barcelona #8 & road. 1 turn to move, 6 turns to road - 7 turns total.

Grand total time = 45 turns.

We were also looking at having the slower growing & size limited cities be used as worker farms for a bit. This will help to increase our worker force, atleast until those new workers are able to do what ever Infrastructure improvements that the cities will need for their own growth & connection to the network.

If for Instance, Barcelona was to build a worker next, after the Warrior is completed, it could get started on the roads and then help the other worker with the Irrigation (2 turns instead of 4) and the roading of the Silks (3 turns instead of 6).

	26-01-2003 01:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by E_T IIf for Instance, Barcelona was to build a worker next, after the Warrior is completed, it could get started on the roads and then help the other worker with the Irrigation (2 turns instead of 4) and the roading of the Silks (3 turns instead of 6).

I agree. Barcelona will build a worker after the warrior is completed. However, I think that he would road the #8 first, in order to have access to the silks first, and roading #1 next.

	26-01-2003 02:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix I agree. Barcelona will build a worker after the warrior is completed. However, I think that he would road the #8 first, in order to have access to the silks first, and roading #1 next.

That was based on having only 1 worker and getting Barcelona connected. With 2 workers, coming from both ways, then roading the silk first should be o.k. It sould be about 11 turns from now until the Worker is built and that's about the time that theother one is roading the game.

E_T

	26-01-2003 03:30									#54
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Oliverfa... E_T and I have just discussed use of the worker produced by Madrid... to help both Madrid and Barcelona in the process of completing that critical road for the luxury...

Worker is produced in 6 turns
Worker moves to Madrid #5 (game)
Worker roads the tile (6 turns...)
Worker moves to Madrid #14 (forest)
Worker chops down forest (10 turns)
Worker irrigates/roads

Meanwhile... the Barcelona worker moves to the silk tile and roads it and connects the road up to Madrid #5 (game).

THEN the Barcelona worker helps with irrigatining/roading Madrid #14.

Once Madrid #14 is irrigated/roaded, one of the workers can help irrigate the area around Barcelona

The OTHER worker could perhaps build a road to Pamplona, thus connecting that city to the luxury near Barcelona (if the Pamplona worker hasn't already started building a road toward Madrid, making the job easier).

What I've laid out is an inexact plan. E_T has the specifics. THe parts I know are those I'm assuming for my modified plan for Madrid (see my new thread - all things marked in RED are those things relying on workers.

When Madrid is done with its second settler in 30 turns, it will have a barracks, a temple, and a connected luxury. It can then work up to Pop 6 or 7 and pump out workers and veteran military units (or, if we don't need any more, more improvements and/or a wonder eventually...).

Last edited by Arnelos on 26-01-2003 at 04:08

	26-01-2003 14:07									#55
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I'll post the specifics tomorrow, it's 4 AM now and I just got back from the function I had gone to.

E_T

	28-01-2003 02:18									#56
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Sorry about the semi absence these days. I'm studying all the proposald for the workers. Will post again soon, but I can tell you in advance that I will respect the governors suggestions as much as posible, if not completely.

	28-01-2003 04:15									#57
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This is based on a few assumptions:

1) the most recent save, where Barcelona is just starting to build it's Worker and that Madrid has 6 turn to get it's worker built (4 turns left for the temple, 2 for the worker)

2) that Barcelona's WF is manipulated after it grows to size 2, so that it's Worker is built in 9 turns from now.


THe Madrid Worker will be designated as MW, the Barcelona Workers as BW.

Turn 0: Madrid's Temple is 4 turns away, Barcelona's worker is currently 10 turns away. Barcelona will grow to size 2 in 6 turns.

Turn 4: Temple built in Madrid, starts on Worker (TOC=2 turns).

Turn 6: Worker built in Madrid, moves to Tile #5 (game tile). Barcelona Grows to size 2, WF 2-5, 1 extra food, 1 shield per turn, 6 shields towards Worker build.

Turn 7: MW starts to road Madrid #5 - 6 turns to complete.

Turn 8: Barcelona's WF changed to 5-8, Worker is completed next turn.

Turn 9: BW built, moves to Barcelona #8 (silks).

Turn 10: BW starts to build Road - 6 turns to complete.

Turn 13: MW finishes Roading Madrid #5, moves to Madrid #14.
Madrid #5 now has extra Trade

Turn 14: MW starts to Chop down Forrest - 10 turns to complete.

Turn 16: BW finishes roading the silks, moves to Barcelona #1.
Trade at Barcelona #8 is now 3.

Turn 17: BW starts to Road Barcelona #1 - 3 turns to complete.

Turn 20: BW finished Roading Barcelona #1, moves to Barcelona #9.

Turn 21: BW starts to Road Barcelona #9 - 3 turns to complete.

Turn 24: BW finished Roading Barcelona #9, moves to Madrid #14. MW finishes Chopping Madrid #14, start Irrigation - 4 turns.
At this time, Barcelona is connected to the trade network and has reduced corruption & Madrid has the silks to help keep it's population happy.

Turn 25: BW Starts Roading Madrid #14 - 3 turns to complete.

Turn 28: MW is finished Irrigation & BW is Finished Roading Madrid #14. Move both to Barcelona #9 and start Irrigation - 2 turns to complete (using both).

Turn 30: Both MW & BW finish Irrigation of Barcelona #9, move to Barcelona #1 and Start Irrigation - 2 turns to complete.
Barcelona can now grow faster at size 2 and can support up to size 4.

Turn 32: Both MW & BW finish Irrigation of Barcelona #1, move to Other Tasks.
Barcelona can now grow faster at size 3 and can support up to size 5.

The Barcelona Worker can be built on turn 8, but that would not allow for both of the workers to be finished with Madrid 14 at the same time.

After the 2 are done with the Irrigation of Barcelona, they can move on to other tasks. It's recommended that they stay togeather, to start roading towards the spices, as they will have to work along the hills and forrests to get there, and with both of them together, it will be 4 turns (1 to move, 3 to road) until they atleast have gotten that far. It's 5 tiles to the Spices and that would be an additional 20 turns. Hopefully, we'll have a settler that is ready to go and settle that site and can move towards it faster via the new road.

Granted, it will take a while (9 turns) for 1 worker to build the road across the mountains to connect Pamplona to Madrid, it might be more prudent to have the worker that is due to be built in Pamplona to built that road.

Eta Tamali

Last edited by E_T on 29-01-2003 at 06:24

	29-01-2003 02:27									#58
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Here are my plans for building the road infrastructure to connect all the Spanish Empire. The year numbers are the year in which that part of the infrastructure will be finished.



Visigoth slaves (the first unit):
Will road to the horses near Pamplona, which will have linked at 1690BC. After that will begin the road to connect Pamplona with Madrid, including the tunnel through the mountains. If meanwhile a new worker unit appears (i.e. Pamplona build its own worker) this new worker will help building the tunnel. If not, Pamplona and Madrid will be connected by 1215BC.

Barcelona slaves:
First of all, road the spices as Astrologix has demanded. Then continue roading towards Madrid.

Madrid slaves:
First road the game (Madrid #5) to increase Madrid production. Here I have a variation from señor Tamali's plan. I thin it is better to road south directly to Pamplona instead of beginning choping the forest. That way Barcelona and Madrid will be connected sooner and both will benefit from it. Madrid will have the spices and Barcelona will have less corruption. In adition to this the travel time between the two cities will be reduced to 2 turns. After roading Barcelona #9, Madrid slaves will go to Madrid #14 and start choping it. Barcelona slaves will join them in 1490BC, halving the remaining time needed so the work it is done in 1390BC. Then Barcelona slaves will start irrigation, and Madrid slaves can either help them or attend other needings, depending on what is more urgent at that time.

Note: The years numbers are calculated with 40 year turns until 1810BC and then 25 years turns. I don't remember exactly when the 25 year turns finish. I hope it is after 1315BC

Last edited by OliverFA on 29-01-2003 at 02:41

	29-01-2003 03:27									#59
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Slave Master, thank you for sharing these plans.

I wonder about the road to the proposed new city and horses though. I imagined that this road would reach the horses via the tile directly south of the horses, which is a shielded grassland, rather than a normal one. A roaded shielded grassland will be more valuable to the future city in time. Also, don't forget we intend to build a city in the desert, and a road on the shielded grassland could more easily branch out in that direction.

	29-01-2003 03:32									#60
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You are right, señor Dejon. Thank you for making me notice this issue. Of course, it's much better to road the shielded grassland than the normal one.