21-12-2002 06:38									#1
	Discussion - how to use our workers. Suffering from ads?

In the chat tonight, many people expressed the need to connect all of our cities together as soon as possible, so that our troops may move between them easier adn they may trade goods.

However, we have no goods to trade yet, and our production is low. I proposed we use the worker (s) to focus on a city at a time, build up the infrastructure for that city, then move on to the next without worring about roading between them at this time.

I am not saying that roads are not important, just secondary to, say, mining and roading a cow (such as by city site #2) then say, roading over the mountains to connect it to madrid.

Later, when we have our core cities infrastructure built up, we will change the two priorities and focus on connecting our empire and creating trade routes.

Please discuss.

GK

	21-12-2002 08:32									#2
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I tend to agree

The production of cities is more important right now, while we have no luxuries.

As for Defense, well we dont have much to defend against right now. I could see that being important once we have to shuffle troups up to an enemy, but for the time being, i would prefer we have the means to BUILD that army faster.

Production, all the way.

	21-12-2002 09:35									#3
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As I argued in the chat, I agree with GodKing's argument (and basically just repeated it myself).

Production and growth are the key elements to success at this stage in our tribe's history.

	21-12-2002 16:38									#4
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I agree.

I would find particularly expensive in time to build roads through these mountains to the city #2.

I propose Madrid to build a second worker soon in order to help our first worker to build roads later (it's obvious, isn't it ?).

	21-12-2002 20:31									#5
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Now that we have irrigated a bit, we can build a mine.

Madrid should pop out settlers like a randy señora pops out her niñas. To achieve the best REX-popping rate, city prod. and growth should be even and optimal.

	21-12-2002 22:00									#6
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IMHO the only problem with this is the efficient use of workers.
Ideally arriving on a tile, a worker does the mine or irrigation then a road. A worker should not leave a tile without a road. Anytime he leaves a tile without road he looses one fourth of his capacity of working.
As a consequence, as long as there are no roads linking Madrid and Pamplona, the workers build in Madrid should work the tiles of Madrid. The tiles of Pamplona will be worked by workers built there.

	21-12-2002 22:10									#7
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why is it that everyone seems to think production is low? We have the equivalent of 2 mined hills in Madrid (counting the cow bonus and the forest +game); we just are not utilizing one of them in favor of faster growth. City #2 will not be lacking in production either; it won't be at the maxed for a while (corruption could easily take the extra shield we get from mining the first cow anyway.

Look around us. We are not in a movement-friendly location with hills and mountains hemming us in and saddled with non-industrious workers as we are. This is the the paradigm we face. Our production will come through this fine; however, if we do not project our power now, if we waste turns to gain shields that might be lost to corruption anyway, if we cannot come to terms with the biggest obstacle between us and control of the region, we are resigning ourselves to be bitplayers on the world stage I think.

Señor DAVOUT was right. Any turn where a slave does nothing is waste. I have already run a scenario where it will take the slaves from the present position in the hills exactly 20 turns to connect the two cities. Our slaves would be done roading the hills NW of Madrid in 3000 B.C. at exactly the same time as the earliest founding of City #2 and would then be ready to cross the river and road the grassland and then the mountains (those mountains will only take 9 turns to road). Therefore, when City #2 is founded, our slaves will only be 14 turns away from connecting the cities. That is not a ridiculous amount of time or an unacceptable loss IMHO.

All this said, I think it should be a priority to have a second worker online ASAP to try and account for our non-industrious status and our need road out of this beautiful but potentially-deadly starting position we are in.

	21-12-2002 22:11									#8
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that is double post #2.

	21-12-2002 22:24									#9
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I favour whatever method gets settlers out as quickly as possible. Maybe we need more irrigation instead around Madrid?

I think it is necessary to build the road across the mountains to Pamplona. It is a rich place, but what good will its riches do us if they are all lost to corruption? Then once the road is built, Pamplona will be able to contribute more, even settlers.

	21-12-2002 22:49									#10
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I have to agree with señor Ruby Maser and señor Davout.

The point here is: Which size are our cities suposed to have for the next turns? If Madrid is going to sent some of his people periodically to found another cities or to build new workers, then we won't need more than 2 or maybe 3 fully productive tiles. Using time to mine or to irrigate these extra tiles we are not going to use looks like a waste of time. On the other hand, if our slaves leave a tile without roading it they will have to come sooner or later, with higher moviment cost.

Also, the roads will help us not only by reducing corruption in Pamplona, but also by making it easier to be defended. An spearman between our two roaded cities (or even a warrior) could reach any of them in time. Sure, if some warrior pops here and attacks our city, it will mean a permanent war declaration on our part, but this will also mean a terrible hit to our growing nation which would send us behind all the other civs. Last but not least, roads will help future settler to reach their placement earlier favoring REX.

Said that, maybe we should consider strongly the GodKing's proposition of placing cities closer. Even this incredibly big "size 12" cities he speaks of would still let several tiles unocupied, and this would help us to connect them by roads early.

	22-12-2002 01:59									#11
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Do I just remember things wrong, or does irrigation not count for squat under depotism? I thought you had to have a higher form of government for irrigation to work. Or is this something that changed with PtW.

Good discussion.

	22-12-2002 02:09									#12
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You're right, maybe irrigation still doesn't work under despotism. But I think our highest priority right now should be to breed, and send out many families to found new towns. Maybe we need to have contests between beef-eaters and squid-eaters to see who can have the biggest families.

	22-12-2002 02:43									#13
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Under despotism, you lose the 3rd point generated for any tile and any resource type. (for instance a tile that should produce 4 food produce only 3, but a tile that produce 2 shields has no penalty).

I changed my mind since yesterday, now I agree that the road network construction can be delayed, production is more important right now. But when we'll get some spearmen and have met other civs, it will become a crucial element of our empire's defense.

I also agree with OliverFA and GodKing that building closer cities when possible is essential, otherwise we'll waste lots of land in the early ages. 7 civs on a standard map doesn't leave place for lots of cities, if we don't overlap some of them we'll be stuck with at best 10 cities before reaching our opponents borders. And if these opponents have something like 15 cities because they built closer... we're in for some serious trouble

	22-12-2002 12:35									#14
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If we allow the cities to grow and have enought Irrigation to have a specialist or two, then we'll be at our fullest of production and have people that we can take from the cities for workers and/or settlers without effecting the full production.

The City in the Valley of the Cows will allow that to happen at a better pace. IMHO, I beleave that its the reason that the AI is able to have a rapid REX Rate. I haven't tested it in any games recently, but we can look into it.

E_T

	22-12-2002 19:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Do I just remember things wrong, or does irrigation not count for squat under depotism? I thought you had to have a higher form of government for irrigation to work. Or is this something that changed with PtW. Good discussion.

Your are right, and this is the reason because we don't need to irrigate standard tiles so urgently. We can concentrate on special tiles (2 or 3 per city should be enough at the REX phase) and roads and come back to this normal tiles once we are planning to change to monarchy. Meanwhile our settlers and military units will benefit from our roads, and the corruption will be lower.

	22-12-2002 20:24									#16
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We should mine a bit around Madrid already,
so that we are prepared when we are racing for a Wonder later.
Its very sad when we start out first, but lack shields, and then loses the race...

Mining just one hill will help out in the REx-phase too.

	22-12-2002 21:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat We should mine a bit around Madrid already, so that we are prepared when we are racing for a Wonder later. Its very sad when we start out first, but lack shields, and then loses the race... Mining just one hill will help out in the REx-phase too.

There are lots of things you can do "to be prepared for later" but it is even more important to make sure that this "later" arrives. Right now we must concentrate in expanding and consolidating, and thinking about what will happen when we want to race for a wonder or when our cities grow higher than 12 are very low in tre priority list. Of course, is recomandable to plan things in advance, but if mining a hill in Madrid that won't be used prevents us from roading to Pamplona or from irrigating/mining tiles that will really be used right now (and not in some dozens of turns) this will be much more beneficious to our (some day) big empire.

	23-12-2002 21:37									#18
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[ooc]

Without having an AI to race against for a wonder is quite refreshing, in a way. we can be a bit more relaxed with some of our builds.

E_T

[/ooc]

	24-12-2002 20:52									#19
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You see, Señor Oliver....
That mining just one hill will help out in the REx-phase . We can get the turn-to-settler down to turn-to-growth.

We already irrigated the wheat, so if we mine a hill it can
even the prod/growth out to optimal settler-spawn.

	24-12-2002 21:03									#20
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we already have three tiles at this city - the cow, the wheat and the game. We don't need another item now if all we are doing is pumping out settlers.

We should send our worker once these three tiles are completely worked to the next city site and have him prepare that site for when our settler arives in 4-5 turns.

GK

	24-12-2002 21:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat You see, Señor Oliver.... That mining just one hill will help out in the REx-phase . We can get the turn-to-settler down to turn-to-growth. We already irrigated the wheat, so if we mine a hill it can even the prod/growth out to optimal settler-spawn.

mining the hill is only gonna get us two shields under despotism, Señor PlagueRat. We already have two tiles in Madrid's radius capable of doing that. I think it is time for our slaves to move on to other tasks as well; Madrid will be fine for now.

As for whether or not to go directly to city #2 or road there first, I have not looked at it closely enough to give an opinion yet. I trust our esteemed Señor Oliverfa will make the best choice for us though

	25-12-2002 00:26									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser As for whether or not to go directly to city #2 or road there first, I have not looked at it closely enough to give an opinion yet. I trust our esteemed Señor Oliverfa will make the best choice for us though

Thanks for your kind words Señor Ruby_Maser. I hope you are not saying that because you want the workers at the new city to improve it.

Just joking

	25-12-2002 18:47									#23
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Connecting the cities is probably the best thing to do anyway.

	25-12-2002 22:19									#24
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We should build a road towards the new city location (on the shielded Grassland tile) and then send him over the mountain to the Valley, to work on the new City site Area. After we have Pamplona set to build and support the further building of settlers, we can have the worker build the connecting road between Madrid & Pamplona.

By this time, Madrid could have built another Worker to do other things.

Eta Tamali

	26-12-2002 02:54									#25
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This Chart shows the times for workers to complete a task, under Despotism.



This shows what and how many workers to complete a task in X amount of time.

Example: The designations on Road Flat 3-2-1, shows that 1 worker would road a flat tile in 3 turns, 2 workers on 2 turns & 3 workers in 1 turn. And with Irrigating the same Flat tile of 4-2-2-1 means that 1 worker takes 4 turns, 2 or 3 workers would take 2 turns and 4 workers would finish in 1 turn.

Example: 2 Non-Industrious workers would take 9 turns to Mine a Mountain. The same number of Industrious Workers would take 5 turns to Mine the same mountain

I included the Industrious, so that we have an Idea what some of the other teams would have for wotrker times.

E_T

	26-12-2002 07:38									#26
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Thanks E_T

	26-12-2002 07:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Thanks E_T

Yeh, I spent a few hours searching through the Strategy Forum for something like this and finally just went and make up a scenario with a bunch of workers on various terrain and just made note of whatever times each task took. I did it for both Industrious & Non-Industrious Civs. I should have just save my time and done that frome the begining, but I did see some other things that might be of interest, so it wasn't a complete waste of time...

E_T

	26-12-2002 07:58									#28
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Basically, it shows that we should be using stacks of 2 to 3 workers for all of our Infrastructure Tasks.

E_T

	26-12-2002 17:15									#29
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As ever, great work Señor Tamali! I am glad you are with the proud Spanish civilization!

This chart shows that it isn't useful to road the mountains at this time.

	26-12-2002 20:20									#30
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Madrid is a settler+spearman factory for now in early REX. Building a worker would serve to slow down rather than speed up REX while city sites are so close.

That said, what Madrid could REALLY USE is a road linking it to a luxury (so we could expand to Pop 4 w/o revolt). Once the new city gets up and running and can build a worker or two before becoming a settler factory itself, I can probably sneak a worker into the queue at Madrid. However, I'd generally want to keep Madrid as a settler factory for now. We can catch up with all the roads we need once we have the cities where we want them and defended by spearmen.

EDIT: Oops, wrong thread

Last edited by Arnelos on 26-12-2002 at 20:25