22-12-2002 23:58									#1
	Guerillas, They're Great ! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Does any one else love these troops ?

This is the first game Ive got far enough with PTW to get them and they are great fun to watch. The AI seems to like them as well as Ive encountered lots of enemy Guerillas.

Only thing I would like to see is for them to have 2 movement to reflect their lightly armed attire, and the fact that guerilla warfare is usually covert ie in hit and out.

Got to love the animation and the bayonet sounds is

Last edited by ChrisiusMaximus on 05-01-2003 at 02:35

	23-12-2002 00:24									#2
	Tired of ads?

They may look and sound nice but that is no reason for me to really use them.

I have seen them, I do like them but why would you want to build these guys if you can build Infantry for the same price?

	23-12-2002 02:44									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I love my Guerillas, but that's because they're colorless; and the AI uses them well too.

Chirius, I agree guerillas probably should have 2 moves, but I think in addition to colorless that would just be too powerful. So I make mine 6/4/1.

In my last game I used them to steal a stack of, like, 20 French workers. , which did not start a war BTW. Unfortunately Joan also started using them, but she protected her guerillas. She would send stacks of 1 infantry and 1 guerilla into my territory to destroy infrastructure; the guerilla destroyed and the inf just sat on top. All I could do was demand leave territory/war.

I haven't seized a city yet with them, but that could be very interesting.

	23-12-2002 03:51									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Carver do you mean like the privateer?, Ive tried pillaging land improvements with them but it causes war. Are you sure you were not at war with them ?

If not then could you tell me if they are supposed to be colourless as you put it, because that would be even better!

Have you done this in the editor along with the defense change, and if so why are'nt they colourless as standard. It would be far more realistic as the target of their sabotage and or terrorism would have to prove their ID and so could not start a war.

I suppose though that if colourless then they should not be able to take cities as this would unbalance the game to much. But it would be nice to nip in and destroy an opponents luxery/strategic resources so the buyer has to aqquire them from you.

	23-12-2002 04:00									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Franses I like to build them in stead of Inf because their attack is so cool, they start with a short burst of machine gun fire and then use bayonets to finish the job.

I do build plenty of Inf for city defense and to protect stacks of Artillery in the field, but these guys are good entertainment value on attack.

Ive always built a variety of units in my games as I like the combined strategy approach. Its very easy to fall into the MA and MI only army and not use the other options available to you. If Im getting seriously mawled then I will use the most powerful units available to me but when Im in total control I like to add variety.

	23-12-2002 04:28									#6
	Re: Guerillas, They're Great ! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Only thing I would like to see is for them to have 2 movement to reflect their lightly armed attire, and the fact that guerilla warfare is usually covert ie in hit and out.

Easy enough, just go into the editor.

	23-12-2002 10:54									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Guerillas do have nationality by default so they are not "colorless"

Guerilla is meant for warrior - swordmen path to be not a dead end. So now in PTW you can have bunch of guerillas left over that you can use to charge over the infantries. Or, if you dont have any rubber or saltpeter, your stuck with offense of four in the age of defense of 10. So adding a guerilla improves balance within game, thats all.

	23-12-2002 10:59									#8
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Franses I like to build them in stead of Inf because their attack is so cool, they start with a short burst of machine gun fire and then use bayonets to finish the job.

Guerilla - 6/6/1
Infantry - 6/10/1

At Same price. Franse is saying Why not just build infantry and attack with them? Since it costs the same and attack is just the same.

quote: I do build plenty of Inf for city defense and to protect stacks of Artillery in the field, but these guys are good entertainment value on attack.

Very well, i see that your priority is not on maximizing your unit's potential but for entertainment purposes.. ok.

	23-12-2002 13:01									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Franses I like to build them in stead of Inf because their attack is so cool, they start with a short burst of machine gun fire and then use bayonets to finish the job.

Fair enough. As long as we have fun.

	23-12-2002 21:19									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I changed them to 6.6.2 and all terrain as grass. Actually makes them worthwhile to have even if you can build infantry (which I changed to 8.10.1).

	23-12-2002 23:18									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Carver do you mean like the privateer?, Ive tried pillaging land improvements with them but it causes war. Are you sure you were not at war with them ? If not then could you tell me if they are supposed to be colourless as you put it, because that would be even better!

I've changed them in the editor to be colourless so that they can destroy stuff without causing a war. I think it's more realistic and gives them more of a purpose. Btw, I like the sound and animation too. It seems like the rarely used units (guerillas, marines and paratroops) have some of the best effects.

	24-12-2002 00:18									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've used them when I didn't have rubber in the Post-modern scenario.....worked pretty well too, until I met the French who had mechinf......I lost all my guys to one city

Fortunately I had Panzers coming, so they soon felt my wrath

	24-12-2002 03:29									#13
	Put an end to popups!

I've modded them w/2 move, all terrain as roads and am using them mainly as scouting elements for my armies. (Also made explorers upgrade to them for that scouting purposes. But then, explorers in my game have a defensive value since they do have an attack animation. Scouts, otoh, have no attack animation so I'm keeping them defenseless.)

	24-12-2002 04:53									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You don't think a move of 6 on all terrain is a bit much? I gave them move 2, but ignoring movement costs in jungle, forests, hills and mountains.

	24-12-2002 06:03									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think I agree with you about movement Zulu and I like Carvers idea of making them colourless but I dont think they should be able to capture cities.

Is it possible to prevent them from capturing cities ? in the editor.

	24-12-2002 06:28									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Is it possible to prevent them from capturing cities ? in the editor.

No, they're just ordinary units for the most part.

	25-12-2002 06:58									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Guerillas ROCK!!!!!!!!!!

	25-12-2002 07:37									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I use mine as 6/6/2, ignore move cost in Jungle, Mountain, and Hills. This allows them to retreat, as well as move quickly over rougher terrain. This makes them great hit-and-fade harrassers.

	25-12-2002 13:39									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Is it possible to prevent them from capturing cities ? in the editor.

uncheck the capture box?

	25-12-2002 19:12									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 uncheck the capture box?

I think that box is only for capturing the new MP units, and any others that can be captured, like Workers. And I've noticed that if it's not checked, the usual AI strategies for the unit don't come up, so the AI won't know how to use them.

	26-12-2002 02:43									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Not to mention the fact that longbowmen can be upgraded to guerillas (so ancient warriors and archers become more attractive propositions). I'm pretty sure that Firaxis said they were experimenting with hidden nationality for guerrilas (although I am not willing to find the source, it was a chat transcript or something) but I guess they were too busy to rush out a half finished product. As you do!

	26-12-2002 12:04									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Willem I think that box is only for capturing the new MP units, and any others that can be captured, like Workers. And I've noticed that if it's not checked, the usual AI strategies for the unit don't come up, so the AI won't know how to use them.

if not checked its not considered a conventional ground unit. thats why you cant check off/def for ai strategy.

you can still make ai use it as a artillery if given artillery like function w/o capture box. This would make sense.

	29-12-2002 17:06									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 You don't think a move of 6 on all terrain is a bit much?

...in my playtesting, I'd have to say "yes!"

quote: I gave them move 2, but ignoring movement costs in jungle, forests, hills and mountains.

That sounds a bit better. Though I'm moving them to three to use as a scouting unit.

(Next on my "brilliant" ideas: should I or should I not give ships w/bombard ability the blitz option... probably not, but I may test that just for the heck of it sometime in the future.)

	30-12-2002 23:39									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I like the Guerilla unit as well. This unit came in real handy this weekend when I got stuck without rubber. I did lose a stack of 12 trying to take a city heavily defended by infantry with only one casualty by the other side. My take is that a guerilla warrior is more geared to attack than defense. What does anyone think of 7.6.2 ??

	31-12-2002 02:56									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You should have used ARTILLERY.

And you would probably have no more then 2-3 units of loses.

	31-12-2002 03:48									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Want to know if the AI see the advantage of taking unit when the flag "Hidden Nationality" are check?

If I make the guerrila with "Hidden Nationality", do AI will use it?

Tanx

	31-12-2002 04:01									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc Want to know if the AI see the advantage of taking unit when the flag "Hidden Nationality" are check? If I make the guerrila with "Hidden Nationality", do AI will use it? Tanx

Oh yes! There'll be times when you'll think you've created a monster. I've noticed the AI has an "eye for an eye" approach. The more I use them, the more it will send my way.

I was looking in on the Indian empire once, with the old cheat that was around. Gandhi had a sizable empire, which I was harrassing quite a bit with my hidden units, and at least 2/3 of his cities were in the process of building them. I would have had quite a swarm of them being rammed down my throat if I would have continued with that game.

Keep in mind that they aren't truly hidden. The other civ will know who they belong to, but it won't be able to anything about it, other than get really peeved at you. And be sure to protect your Workers/Settlers near your borders, they'll be easy pickings otherwise.

	31-12-2002 06:22									#28
	Suffering from ads?

ok Tanx Willem

	31-12-2002 07:42									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc ok Tanx Willem

Another thing to keep in mind is that the AI won't always use them intelligently. In my last game, the Egyptians kept sending hidden units into my territority in order to capture Workers that were in the area. Seeing as how I had a number of Cavalry in the area, and my own hidden units, I was usually able to recapture my Workers, plus destroy the hidden unit that left itself vulnerable. The AI always ends them out one at a time, never in a stack, at least from what I've seen so far.

But they still managed to keep me on my toes and make a general nuisance of themselves. There were a few times when I ended up capturing my own workers, which Cleo had captured from me previously. And this was during peacetime between us.

	31-12-2002 07:49									#30
	Put an end to popups!

I had a unit that was 1/1/1 (all as roads) that was colorless, but I had some issues.

-First of all, it was unique, so I don't know how the AI would use them.
-They were attacked on sight by any unit nearby, regardless of anything
-If I stacked them with one of my colored units under a right of passage agreement, I could pillage an entire countryside with no downside.

Other than that, they were pretty cool, but, for the process of pillaging and capturing, I thing the human will always have a huge advantage.

Multiplayer might be unique though...