28-12-2002 00:03									#31
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quote: Look at the history of the United States. All that has happened is because of immigration and the 'melting pot'.

All this has happened because all the other world powers got rightously ****ed in WW1 and WW2.

Anyone got any evidence? Facts? Ideas?

	28-12-2002 00:05									#32
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Is Britain really that overcrowded? It could probably take double the current population, if urbanisation was intensified and suburbanisation curbed.

	28-12-2002 00:20									#33
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No it isn't that overcrowded. That's Malthusian hyper-bollocks.

And while there is unemployment in Britain (though well down on what it was 15 years ago), there's also a net skills shortage.

	28-12-2002 00:27									#34
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The Lubbers article is bollocks in this context too. Ruud has just taken the following principle-

"If you could go for one person per thousand citizens there would be no refugee problem in the world at all," he said. "

....which requires application on a world-wide scale to work, then the issue is not that Britain is taking too many refugees, but that China, India, Indonesia, North Korea etc aren't taking enough.

It's still crap. I'd struggle to believe that the fact that Nigeria has a far larger population than the UK means that it's far more able to seamlessly accommodate a much larger number of refugees. Lubbers has managed to fit both his entire legs in his mouth.

	28-12-2002 00:38									#35
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quote: That's Malthusian hyper-bollocks.

That's funny for so many reasons.

	28-12-2002 00:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp No it isn't that overcrowded. That's Malthusian hyper-bollocks. And while there is unemployment in Britain (though well down on what it was 15 years ago), there's also a net skills shortage.

Ah, you're probably right.

I just don't think endless immigration is the answer to all economic problems. Although it still doesn't mean you shouldn't let them in... notice I never said that. I just said its not the answer to Britain's problems.

	28-12-2002 00:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy I say build several more cities, and take more immigrants in ! because as it stands, the housing situation in the UK is terrible .. we need more cities.

Where are you going to build the cities? If no-one else the environmentalists will have a field day.

	28-12-2002 00:47									#38
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If a flood of asylum seekers are fleeing oppression and extreme poverty, such as we have seen in the case of Cuba, Haiti and Mexico in our own hemisphere, I think the best course of action is to "fix" the problem at its source. The people who left Castro in power (Kennedy) were pretty muddled thinkers, IMHO. They may have kept the peace, but the people of Cuba have suffered for it.

If Europe is being overwhelmed by refugees from Islamic North Africa, why doesn't Europe act? Stop waiting for the US to fix all the world's problems. We can't.

	28-12-2002 00:49									#39
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quote: All this has happened because all the other world powers got rightously ****ed in WW1 and WW2.

Um... no. The United States, before WW1 was an economic power. Look at the amount of steel production for one. It is only AFTER WW2 that the US became a military power as well.

	28-12-2002 00:56									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Graag Its a mystery why the EU doesn't simply divide allocation of asylum seekers between it's members according to population (or GDP or whatever).

The UK has around a ~0.5 per 1,000 persons net immigration, which compares to Germany's ~10 per 1,000.

	28-12-2002 02:32									#41
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My main question is how can one become a 'phony' immigrant?

	28-12-2002 05:14									#42
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quote: If Europe is being overwhelmed by refugees from Islamic North Africa, why doesn't Europe act? Stop waiting for the US to fix all the world's problems. We can't.

No sh*t sherlock

quote: Um... no. The United States, before WW1 was an economic power. Look at the amount of steel production for one. It is only AFTER WW2 that the US became a military power as well.

An economic power. Not the economic power. The US' domination of world trade can be see to increase markedly and constantly since WW2, and it is fairly obvious the UK, France etc. was in little position to trade sh*t.

quote: The UK has around a ~0.5 per 1,000 persons net immigration, which compares to Germany's ~10 per 1,000.

Interesting. Good for the Germans then. I'm surprised by that figure to be honest, but then thats what you get for reading the Telegraph. Also surprised the Germans aren't showing more right-wing anti-immigration tendancies.
Though I imagine if you look at London alone the figure is probably closer to the German figure than .5 per 1000

	28-12-2002 05:19									#43
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quote: An economic power. Not the economic power.

We aren't the economic power NOW either. Does that mean we aren't strong?

	28-12-2002 05:25									#44
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Um, no. You are indeed very very strong. If you want to be pedantic, you are quite right that the US is not the only economic power in the world, but they are a looong way ahead of the pack.

	28-12-2002 05:32									#45
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Actually, the EU is just about equal in terms of economic power.

Japan and China are not that far either, when you compare their GDP per capita in a Purchasing Power Parity comparison.

And also, if we are talking about after WW2, by the 1970s, the USSR was about 75% of the way to the US GDP with less people.

--

It is obvious that the US's economic strength comes partly from the US's willingness (at least in the past) to admit massive numbers of immigrants into the country.

	28-12-2002 06:58									#46
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The EU is not a state.

Japan and China are a million miles off.

USSR in the 70's was a crock.

	28-12-2002 07:42									#47
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quote: The EU is not a state.

So what, we aren't talking about states. It is a political entity that is unified enough to be a competitor, economically to the US.

quote: Japan and China are a million miles off.

Hardly. They are closer than you think.

quote: USSR in the 70's was a crock.

And yet they weren't that far off from the US economically.

	28-12-2002 08:38									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Their political views aren't relavent in my opinion. Thats discrimination. Either you take them or you don't.

Discrimination based on ideology is ok if it can save lives.

	28-12-2002 08:49									#49
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Until the USSR dissolved it had a larger population than the US. By 1980, when the US population reached 250 million, the population of the USSR was 275 million.

I notice that the article grossly underestimates the immigrant population of the US. Evidently Spanish speaking peoples don't rate mentioning in Europe.

	28-12-2002 09:15									#50
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How to make an unpleasant beverage called Boddington's:

press the sour grapes of wrath, until they emit a sour whine.

Somehow, in the Newspeak world of his, genuine asylum seekers become 'phony immigrants'.

More than ever, when I see his name attached to a new post, I feel a sense of shame at being British.

And a sense of relief at being in Australia. As a non- 'phony immigrant', of course.

	28-12-2002 11:45									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Until the USSR dissolved it had a larger population than the US. By 1980, when the US population reached 250 million, the population of the USSR was 275 million. I notice that the article grossly underestimates the immigrant population of the US. Evidently Spanish speaking peoples don't rate mentioning in Europe.

But most Spanish speaking people in the US aren't exactly immigrants. There are many, but just as many, if not more, have been in the US since before annexation.

Although I could just be making a fool of myself since I don't know which article you're refering to

	28-12-2002 13:04									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If a flood of asylum seekers are fleeing oppression and extreme poverty, such as we have seen in the case of Cuba, Haiti and Mexico in our own hemisphere, I think the best course of action is to "fix" the problem at its source. The people who left Castro in power (Kennedy) were pretty muddled thinkers, IMHO. They may have kept the peace, but the people of Cuba have suffered for it. If Europe is being overwhelmed by refugees from Islamic North Africa, why doesn't Europe act? Stop waiting for the US to fix all the world's problems. We can't.

Great suggestion, Ned. Given the numbers of Falun Gong followers being oppressed and fleeing, do you suggest that the answer is to invade China?

I bet even the big ol' US of A would pass on that one...

	28-12-2002 17:27									#53
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The relative attractiveness of allowing immigrants into your country is partly attributed to the economic level of socialized health and retirement programs compared. The other major factor should be the free movement of labor and economic mobility.

In countries where the social programs are large relative to the economy, the cost of immigrants to the country may outweigh the potential benefits of new workers. It may also influence the type of immigrants a country attracts. Consider Sweden's former policy of open immigration, low labor mobility, and expensive government programs. They got a lot of good working immigrants, but they also got a lot of folks from countries with poor social services who were looking to retire. (Buck Birdseed may be able to shed some corrective insight on this.)

The States on the other hand is somewhat well known on these boards as a place where govt programs are zero, but everyone has the chance to make their big fortune. While our programs are certainly not zero, and making a fortune is a tough multi-generational task - we still get a core entreprenuerial group of immigrants that give 'them', as a group, top billing as the primary reason behind the success of the USofA.


(cue: Immigrant Song)

	28-12-2002 18:10									#54
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...so if we got rid of our over-generous and -socialised health, welfare and pension payments, we could start to see the real benefits of accepting immigrants.

We would also see the number of sponging free-loaders fall.

	28-12-2002 18:23									#55
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Exactly. Now reimburse me for the money wasted on your education.

	28-12-2002 18:23									#56
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What do you think about the Eastern enlargement of the EU Stew? What about the significant economic migration that will result from this? Is it a good idea?

	28-12-2002 18:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn But most Spanish speaking people in the US aren't exactly immigrants. There are many, but just as many, if not more, have been in the US since before annexation. Although I could just be making a fool of myself since I don't know which article you're refering to

I was referring to the article that the top post in this thread links to. The article has a bar graph at the bottom comparing the relative number of asylum seekers per thousand capita over a five year period for a number of countries. The graph puts the US down near the botom, way below most European countries. It evidently ignores the fact that the US gets about one million immigrants/year, which would give the US about 18 immigrants/thousand population over a five year period. This would place the US at the top of the chart, something no European would ever want to do. You can argue that most of the immigrants to the US are not political asylum seekers, and that most have entered the US outside the law and therefore do not count in this survey. If the point of the article is the economic impact of immigrants on the host nation then they should count.

	28-12-2002 18:36									#58
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That retort is getting tired Lax.

Eastern enlargement - depends wholly on the conditions, on reform, on whether Britain will be expected to stump up even more cash.

	28-12-2002 22:26									#59
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Though apt, seeing as you failed to spell the three letters of "Laz" correctly.