28-12-2002 01:12									#1
	Is Invading Iraq "Sharon's War"? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS...aron/index.html

quote: WASHINGTON -- Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, having just returned from a week-long fact-finding trip to the Middle East, addressed the Chicago Council of Foreign Relations December 16 and said out loud what is whispered on Capitol Hill: "The road to Arab-Israeli peace will not likely go through Baghdad, as some may claim." The "some" are led by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. In private conversation with Hagel and many other members of Congress, the former general leaves no doubt that the greatest U.S. assistance to Israel would be to overthrow Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime. That view is widely shared inside the Bush administration, and is a major reason why U.S. forces today are assembling for war. "Military force alone," Hagel told his Chicago audience, "will neither assure a democratic transition in Iraq, bring peace to Israelis and Palestinians, nor assure stability in the Middle East." Indeed, the senator returned from the Mideast more concerned than his prepared speech indicates. As the U.S. gets ready for war, its standing in Islam -- even among longtime allies -- stands low. Yet, the Bush administration has tied itself firmly to Gen. Sharon and his policies. Gen. Amran Mitzna, the new Labor Party leader challenging the heavily favored Sharon in the January 28 election, is denied access to senior U.S. officials. In private conversation, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice has insisted that Hezbollah -- not al Qaeda -- is the world's most dangerous terrorist organization. How could that be, considering al Qaeda's global record of mass carnage? In truth, Hezbollah is the world's most dangerous terrorist organization from Israel's standpoint. While viciously anti-American in rhetoric, the Lebanon-based Hezbollah is focused on the destruction of Israel. "Outside this fight (against Israel), we have done nothing," Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, the organization's secretary general, said in a recent New York Times interview. Thus, Rice's comments suggest that the U.S. war against terrorism, accused of being Iraq-centric, actually is Israel-centric. That ties George W. Bush to Arik Sharon. The prime minister says astonishing things to U.S. visitors. He once rejected hope for negotiations, contending that Arabs and Jews will kill each other for a hundred years. More recently, he promised to put a Jewish settlement on top of any high ground. What is widely perceived as an indissoluble Bush-Sharon bond creates tension throughout Islam -- including Turkey, long a faithful U.S. ally and even longer a secularized state. A poll of Turks by Pew Global Attitudes released December 4 shows 83 percent opposition to permission for U.S. use of bases in their country. Furthermore, a 53 percent Turkish majority asserted that the U.S. wants to oust Saddam Hussein as part of an anti-Muslim crusade rather than because he is a threat to peace. Turkish cooperation in the war must be approved by Turkey's newly elected parliament, consisting of about 90 percent new members with an Islamic party in a heavy majority. The parliament's mood did not improve when the European Union on December 12 rebuffed both the Turkish and the U.S. governments by rejecting Turkey's application for membership. Abdullah Gul, the new prime minister, accused European leaders of "discrimination" and "prejudice" -- reflecting Islam's current view of the West. That is the background for an attack on Iraq by a coalition of English-speaking countries. "We should refrain from a rush to declare a 'material breach' because of the gaps in Iraq's 12,000-page document," Hagel advised in Chicago, calling on the U.S. to "marshal our own evidence." Nevertheless, Hagel's close associate, Secretary of State Colin Powell, declared a material breach three days after the senator's advice. Powell's uncharacteristic bellicosity may have been necessary for him to stay in the complicated game played within the Bush administration. Without Powell, President Bush may not have gone to Congress and the United Nations or delivered his masterful speech to the U.N. General Assembly. Day to day, only the secretary of state stands up to the forceful Vice President **** Cheney. On balance, war with Iraq may not be inevitable but is highly probable. That it looks like Sharon's war disturbs Americans such as Chuck Hagel, who have no use for Saddam Hussein but worry about the background of an attack against him.

Discuss .

	28-12-2002 01:19									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

He's comparing apples to oranges, or bananas, given the forum preference.

	28-12-2002 01:20									#3
	Put an end to popups!

That's the dumbest thing I've heard today...

	28-12-2002 01:23									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sloww... the question is why are we invading Iraq NOW? I mean, one of the main reasons I see is that Sharon and Israel would like nothing better than to take Saddam out. That whole think with launching Scuds into Tel Aviv didn't endear him to Israel.

	28-12-2002 01:25									#5
	Got spare money?

Imran, I am beginning to think that CNN really believes that a vast Jewish conspiracy runs the United States.

But, just remember, it wasn't that long ago that everyone was complaining that Bush was a stooge of the Saudi's because of OIL.

	28-12-2002 01:26									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Because we just got back around to it after no one did for years.
Unless you think it's better to do everything all at once.

And Sava, shut the **** up. Had I gotten my Christmas wish, your ass would be in Afganistan.

	28-12-2002 01:26									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Israel is far more concerned with Iran, the Hizballah and the Pals than with Iraq. Really.

	28-12-2002 01:27									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

sloww... resorting to insults just because I called this silly anti-semetic Jewish conspiracy crap stupid? You've have problems if you're wishing bad things to people who post at an online gaming site's off-topic forums...

	28-12-2002 01:31									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sava sloww... resorting to insults just because I called this silly anti-semetic Jewish conspiracy crap stupid? You've have problems if you're wishing bad things to people who post at an online gaming site's off-topic forums...

Who said anything about anti-semitism? Israel is a state, not a religion. You can be anti-Israeli and not be anti-semetic. Just because you're anit-US, does that mean you're racist against christians?

And I like how you just resort to mindless laughing when you can't substantiate your claims.

	28-12-2002 01:33									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sava is a trite f*cking lefist that way. Try to live with it

	28-12-2002 01:34									#11
	Got spare money?

quote: Imran, I am beginning to think that CNN really believes that a vast Jewish conspiracy runs the United States.

CNN has plenty of Jewish people on their payroll. Novak is a highly respected Republican journalist, who simply believes Israel is wrong.

It's funny that anything critisizing Israel is automatically anti-Semetic. PC anyone?

After all, wouldn't Israel like to see Saddam ousted? It never really liked him, especially lately with him ratcheting up the rhetoric.

	28-12-2002 01:35									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The assertion that there's a Jewish conspiracy running America is what is anti-semetic. Now if there was an Israeli conspiracy, then the post would be anti-israeli... Hooked on phonics didn't work too well for you did it? And I don't resort to laughing, its the by-product of reading something stupid .

	28-12-2002 01:36									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I CANT UN-DERSTEND,, MORE OFF THESE, PLAESE!!! :

	28-12-2002 01:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

hahahha Zylka

	28-12-2002 01:38									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: The assertion that there's a Jewish conspiracy running America is what is anti-semetic.

And where was this assertion made, outside of your head, of course.

	28-12-2002 01:40									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It was insinuated in this article... following a long history of such articles... like Ned said. I don't think they're dumb enough to say it outright.

	28-12-2002 01:40									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Sava The assertion that there's a Jewish conspiracy running America is what is anti-semetic. Now if there was an Israeli conspiracy, then the post would be anti-israeli... Hooked on phonics didn't work too well for you did it? And I don't resort to laughing, its the by-product of reading something stupid .

But the whole Jewish conspiracy thing is something that you completely projected onto the article yourself!

The article is anti-Israeli in regards to its state policy. It has nothing to do with anti-semetism.

Now go try to find an outlet for all your inner frustrations elsewhere, ok?

	28-12-2002 01:40									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Although there were some worrying pieces of info and statements in the Israeli media in the past couple weeks.

There was some talking from General Staff officers about the end of the Intifada. They seem to believe that the moral and financial blow to the terrorists from the fall of Iraq combined with an Israeli offensivea a-la Defensive Shield will do the job.

There was also talk about Israeli reaction to a possible Hizballah attack during the war with Iraq, especially if the situation there goes better than expected(for the Iraqis). In this case the plan is a two day bombardment of Lebanese infrastructure that will cause the collapse of the country and bring the UN to take over the internal issues for a while. All this together with a quick invasion to South Lebanon to mop up the Hizballah, and possibly staying in some strategic spots to avoid more firing on Israel.

Note that such war will cause the postponement of the elections and, most likely, will cause the public to forget from all the recent Likud corruption accusations, thus increasing their power in the next Knesset.

But this is all one big conspiracy theory of course.

	28-12-2002 01:41									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Eli...

	28-12-2002 01:41									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Sava hahahha Zylka

I think he was insulting you...

	28-12-2002 01:45									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: But the whole Jewish conspiracy thing is something that you completely projected onto the article yourself!

The article is simply saying that Bush is tied too close to Israel, and his close ties maybe clouding his view of policy in the Mid East.

I'm STILL trying to figure out why he wants to go to Iraq. One part says that he believes Saddam is evil and wants to set up a democracy there as a shining beacon. Other part says he wants to help out Israel because he believes they are one of the good guys. I mean, when even a good ally of ours (Turkey) says this is silly, you gotta ask.

	28-12-2002 01:46									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Eli Israel is far more concerned with Iran, the Hizballah and the Pals than with Iraq. Really.

Indeed, especially with Iran financing and arming Hizbollah and the Palestinians (e.g. Karine A).

With regards to Iraq, Israel has at least a usable defense against Iraq's main delivery system of Scuds - assuming they were able to fly as far as Israel in one piece.

	28-12-2002 01:48									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Israel does know that the US will not in the near future invade Iran though, as there has been closer ties with Iran recently.

However, there have been flareups with Iraq... who also supports terror to a smaller bit.

	28-12-2002 02:06									#24
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I think he was insulting you...

I vaguely gather that as well... but, shooting down his "wit" now would be about as challenging as beating on a cornered pumpkin. That's when you become a terrible person!!!

Compassion

	28-12-2002 02:17									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You are awesome, Zylka

	28-12-2002 02:39									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, I am beginning to think that CNN really believes that a vast Jewish conspiracy runs the United States. Novak is a highly respected Republican journalist, who simply believes Israel is wrong.

Imran, I agree that Novak is a highly respected Republican. But I am bothered by the way he wrote the article. He could have said simply that Iraq should be left alone, and listed his reasons. But instead he wrote the article in an attempt to show that Sharon was calling the shots and that Bush was just his lackey. This is obviously designed to incite those with strong pro-Palestinian biases. Unfortunately, it also incites those with anti-Semitic prejudices.

This is the same "kind" of propaganda that the Nazi's used to incite anti-Semitism in Germany.

	28-12-2002 02:50									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh great... Godwin's Law .

Yes, yes, Novak is anti-Semite that wants to see the Jews die. Come on, be serious! Many people do believe that the US mostly does Israel's wants and desires (myself being one of them). There is no attempt to show that Bush is Sharon's lackey, but merely that Bush is doing exactly what Sharon would like him to do.

And designed to incite? Jeez, you like streching things to their absolute limit, don't you?

	28-12-2002 02:51									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ned, perhaps you should read the article more closely:

quote: In private conversation with Hagel and many other members of Congress, the former general leaves no doubt that the greatest U.S. assistance to Israel would be to overthrow Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime. That view is widely shared inside the Bush administration, and is a major reason why U.S. forces today are assembling for war.

So it's meant to incite when Novak reports on exactly what Sharon said to members of Congress?

	28-12-2002 03:05									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Zylka I CANT UN-DERSTEND,, MORE OFF THESE, PLAESE!!! :

Exactly, you don't understand sh_t, Zylka. You're nothing but an ignorant, racist moron who is too much of a p_ssy to say in person what he types on a computer. Sooner or later someone is going to teach you a lesson and I can't wait until they do.

	28-12-2002 03:09									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ned, perhaps you should read the article more closely: quote: In private conversation with Hagel and many other members of Congress, the former general leaves no doubt that the greatest U.S. assistance to Israel would be to overthrow Saddam Hussein's Iraqi regime. That view is widely shared inside the Bush administration, and is a major reason why U.S. forces today are assembling for war. So it's meant to incite when Novak reports on exactly what Sharon said to members of Congress?

I was thinking more of the title, "Sharon's War."

Of course, Israel will benefit greatly if Saddam is gone. A successor regime will probably be a lot more moderate on the issue of Israel that is Saddam. Hopefully, they will enter into a constructive dialog for peace as did Egypt and Jordan did before. Everyone hopes and expects this.

So why is Novak opposed if this is the end result of war? Does he want Israel destroyed? What's his problem?