28-12-2002 19:13									#1
	Are computer (PC) games dying? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

(possibly long and rambling)

I went to Best Buy yesterday, thinking about getting a new PC game to carry me through to whenever Master of Orion 3 is coming out. Imagine my dismay when I see less shelving for PC games, with more Playstation/X-box games crowding onto the PC game shelf.

It used to be that PC games commanded 3+ full shelves, both sides, at Best Buy - now they cannot even fill up a single shelf. I remember 4+ years ago when the Christmas edition of Computer Gaming World (or PC Gamer) was over 400 pages in size... this years PC Gamer barely broke 150. Many companies are now releasing their PC games as an afterthought to the consoles - I believe even Blizzard is releasing the new Starcraft game as a console only game! (NOOOOOO!!!!!)

My story is probably very typical of the average PC gamer - I'm 35 and have been playing computer (well, microprocessor-based) games since my first Sears Pong box back in 1975. Atari, Colecovision, Mattel handhelds, I've played them all. I got my first PC back in 1990, bought Civilization, and never looked back. But now I have kids, career, family, and very little free time to spend at the computer - and when I do, I usually end up on the net. I just don't play the things like I used to, and when I do I find that going back to Civ2 or Starcraft or SimCity 3k more than suffices to cover my gaming desires. This past year I bought 2 (ONLY 2) games - Civ 3, and Unreal Tournament 2003, whereas in past years I have bought maybe 20-30 games.

I also find the games derivative. The two games I bought this year were sequels, the game I'm looking forward to (MOO3) is the third iteration of that game, and RPG's, no matter how pretty they are (NWN, Morrowind), are still just RPG's. (And who has 100+ hours to dedicate to a single game anyway)? I'm looking at the December issue of PC Gamer and out of 4 "scoops", all of them are sequels, 13 out of 20 reviews were for sequels and expansion packs (and this is for the CHRISTMAS issue!!! You'd think there'd be a hell of a lot more than 20 games to be reviewed!) In other words, a full 65% of the games being developed are dependent upon old coding and already developed "rules." And what good ideas there are breaks down under faulty coding or lack of playtesting (Black and White, anyone?)

So, are PC games dying? I agree that the market was pretty bloated around 1995-1998, but I'm seeing signs of true stagnation in the PC game market and I was wondering what your all's opinion was? I read somewhere that PC game sales actually fell for the first time since the early 1990's, fell by more than 12%. Are we becoming a niche market?

	28-12-2002 19:27									#2
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I don't think so. PC games do go throuh lull periods, especially when a new, imressive console comes out, but it's the only computer games medium which ever survives.

Consoles don't last anywhere near as long as they used to. The SNES and Mega Drive (Genesis) didn't go obselete for ages.

	28-12-2002 19:32									#3
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I think it is cyclical. Just like you, I bought only 2 games last year - Civ 3 and Capitalism 2, both are sequels. The derivative nature of the games is a bit discouraging. Next year could be better.

	28-12-2002 19:44									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I had the same experience when I went to Best Buy a couple days ago to return a pair of Gamecube games--PS2 & XBox games had invaded the PC shelving. However, keep in mind that PC games now come in much smaller packaging, and they require less space.

I'm not sure if PC Games are dying, but there is no doubt that my favorite genres are--adventure and TBS. There hasn't been a great adventure for a few years (GK3 or The Longest Journey, although I hear Syberia is good), and Civ3 just doesn't measure up to SMAC. If MOO3 is a disappointment, well... just wouldn't be a good sign.

	28-12-2002 19:51									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

i think they have been on the down swing for a while(maybe for a few yrs since the dotcom burst) but i don't think they'll ever be really replaced, unless something better than consoles come along. each year it seems there are less and less original ideas and more and more sequels or rip offs. it's not that this is really that bad, no really it's not, it's just that the sequels are hardly ever better than the originals and rarely improve upon the gameplay(other than a handful of tweaks/features).

i have to admit though that after looking at some history it seems to be about the same. snes really had tons of nes rips offs w/ just updated gfx being a standout example as how things were, and are going to continue to be. just look at how many gameboy games nintendo is selling of old rehashed snes ports! i think gaming is growing so fast and the demand is so great that quantity outways quality in many instantances.

gaming still has sky as the limit though - it might seem as if things are slowing down but if you take a look back at gaming's history i think things are and will continue to keep moving faster and faster.

The Scratchware Manifesto
Phase One: Prelude To Revolution

The machinery of gaming has run amok.

is an interesting read on sorta this same subject.

Last edited by pg on 28-12-2002 at 20:02

	28-12-2002 19:55									#6
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I don't think PC games are dying, they're just changing. I predict there will be a lot more small guerrilla publishers around in the future, who can make games unhindered by the ignorant marketing suits found in the big companies.

	28-12-2002 20:10									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko I don't think PC games are dying, they're just changing. I predict there will be a lot more small guerrilla publishers around in the future, who can make games unhindered by the ignorant marketing suits found in the big companies.

i hope this happens. it talks about this some in that article i linked. if you look at books, music, hell even movies, you'll see that the these forms of entertainment are considered art and the artist is given much more leeway. sure there are still lots of purely money makers in books, music, but there are also many more weird and niche audience products compared to gaming. to find niche games you have to search the inet and dl old games, or find open source games, etc. i'm sure this will change over time though, and i personally can't wait until it does.

	28-12-2002 20:13									#8
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I dont see PC-only games dying completely, but as the consoles become more and more PC-like in their abilities the big time publishers will shift to consoles. I think that future Microprose and Blizzard titles will be PC games played on a console.

	28-12-2002 20:21									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Combat Mission is IMO the best example of what can be achieved in the PC gaming scene, if the authors of the game have free reign to do what they want.

	28-12-2002 20:25									#10
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Computer games are dying...

In the two malls nearest me, the computer game stores have decreased from three to one. And in that one (Planet X), the computer games have retreated from taking up 3/4 of the store, to the back shelf and a small display of close-outs.

I mark the beginning of the end with the introduction of Windows 95. DOS games were game oriented. With the introduction of Windows 95, the emphasis passed from creating good games to focusing on good graphics. The games were nice to look at, but they tended to be boring or bug filled.

Also, with all those graphics, games started to cost much more to create. Thus, game makers began looking for "safe bets," i.e. derivative...if not game sequels then at least a game in a well recognized genre, e.g. RPGs. Innovation got flushed.

Jaakko thinks guerilla game makers will arise to fill the void. I hope he's right but I don't think so. Retailers have limited shelf space, and they're going to give it to those products they think will sell: Xbox, PlayStation2, and PCs by well known game makers like Microprose and EA.

The end is near. There is no hope. Give up.

	28-12-2002 21:07									#11
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oh, who cares. Computers will remain here, and gaming will always exist. plus they practically give away PS and X-boxes so why would anyone care?

	28-12-2002 22:09									#12
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Yawn. People have been complaining about this for years. Consoles will soon burn out and computer games will emerge triumphant once again. Last I heard, no console was shipping with a mouse and keyboard, so they can't have true FPS, true RTS, and true TBS.

	28-12-2002 22:10									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I care because I don't like gaming consoles. I don't want to press the triangle. I want my mouse and keyboard. I want outdated graphics and no sound and deep thoughtful games that bore the hell out of anyone under 25.

	28-12-2002 22:35									#14
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yes and no...

for people who just want to play, why buy a PC? more expensive, more complicated, more inconveniences.
the game programmers don't need to worry about 120'000 various graphic cards and 562'000 sound cards. an X-Box is an X-Box, a PS2 is a PS2...

but as a permanent PC-user, why not play the games on PC? and anyway: how would you want to play real-time games without a keyboard?

i expect that in the next 5 years, most multiplayer games and most first person shooters will nearly only be made for consoles. strategy and adventure games however will stay on the PC... and there always will be people like me how prefer a nice strategy game to awsome graphics in a FPS...

	28-12-2002 22:40									#15
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Computer games will never die, and here's why.
Everyone can make a game for the PC, while you need a license (and an expensive one too) to make games for the consoles.
So i tihnk Jaakko is right about "guerilla games", and games don't need to be distributed, there are some games that are doing ok, and are only available through online purchase.

	28-12-2002 22:44									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah, they're dying! I remember the time I bought my first PC mag.. Tomb Raider, Riven, Monkey Island 3... shops are filled with shoot 'em up crap nowadays

	28-12-2002 22:45									#17
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John, I think you are doing yourself a disservice by not picking up RPGs on the computer! It is there that the innovation in PC games it. Morrowind and Neverwinter Nights are perhaps two of the best RPGs ever made. The RTS genres are lagging yes, but every genre goes through it. The fact is that RTS have long been devoid of innovation and it'll take a few lean years of them before they can come back with innovating game play.

Right now, the RPG category is very interesting.

If you are into FPS, No One Lives Forever 2 just came out and it is supposed to be a wonderful game. Grand Theft Auto 3 is supposedly a great action game.

--

And Hell, if you REALLY are down... look at January!! On the same day, Simcity 4 AND Master of Orion 3 are coming out!

It just depends on genre. That and I think some of the more 'clone' game makers have moved to consoles (thank God )

	28-12-2002 23:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy Computer games will never die, and here's why. Everyone can make a game for the PC, while you need a license (and an expensive one too) to make games for the consoles. So i tihnk Jaakko is right about "guerilla games", and games don't need to be distributed, there are some games that are doing ok, and are only available through online purchase.

lemmy,

well actually there will probably be a licence need for PC-games. intel (in cooperation with Mi(r0$0ft) is building a chip which only will execute signed software. and you'll probably have to get an expensive licence from either Mi(r0$0ft or int31.

let's just all hope this doesn't happen

	28-12-2002 23:42									#19
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They will never truelly die out. They will always be some games coming out. But PS and X-box will make up most of video games coming out.

Blame this on your fellow piraters. They are the reason companies are getting away from making good games for the PC.

	28-12-2002 23:43									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

P.S. at Best buy computer games still command 5 shelves both sides in my city. Many of these are business software and kid game though. This also includes discounted old games. But that's still a lot of shelf space.

don't forget they made the boxes smaller. This frees up more room.

	29-12-2002 00:19									#21
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Two of the best developers are doing less and less for computers and moving to console: Bungie and Blizzard.
Sad, sad, days!

	29-12-2002 00:31									#22
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oh ****...

and when I was just getting into computer gaming too, i mean, not just some civ3 on the side, but really into it...

I hope they're not dying...

(this post conveyed no useful information )

	29-12-2002 00:44									#23
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Speaking of dying out adventure games...
http://www.gamespy.com/goty2002/pc/index10.shtml

	29-12-2002 01:06									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

PC games are dying economically. Piracy is at alltime highs and sales have actually decreased for PC games in 2002 despite record sales in videogames in general.

They'll always be around but console games will remain king sales-wise, as it's been for years.

	29-12-2002 01:24									#25
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No they're not. Their is still a number of high quality PC developers out there that are consistently making good new games. For all of you talking about Blizzard moving to console- they just had a game that made amazing sales, Warcraft III in which they made alot of profits. I think considering how much they can sell on the PC they are not going to give up on PCs anytime soon. They are also coming with a new computer game soon, World of Warcraft, and given Blizzard's fan base as well as the MMORPG fan base it'll probably get amazing sales. Blizzard's new Starcraft game that you talk about will not be an RTS, more like a james bond type of game. I am sure if they ever do make SC II it'll be on PC. Paradox has producded a number of games and appears to have found a substantial niche market that they can make money from. They made Europa Universalis II, which didn't have great graphics but I felt it was the best computer game ever made. There is still a substantial TBS market on the PC- Civ3 sold well and MOO3 will probably also sell really well. RPGs of course are doing well and you should check them it out. RPG used to look dead a few years ago, now they are strong again. I think PC games will always be with us.....

	29-12-2002 01:26									#26
	Tired of ads?

It's not piracy that kills the games. What kills the games, is the "cheap" games released all the time (I'm talking about all those games released unfinished... filled with bugs). 5+ years ago, it was hard for people to get patches for games (to repeair bugs), therefore back then, the games has to be playable when released. Nowadays it's like they (them who makes/sells the games) think: "Well... everybody has internet access now, so lets get the game out quick, and then we could later just patch the game"...

5+ years ago, most games where finished before they where released, now most games aren't even finished years after release...

I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay for bug-filled games...

And if everybody else feels the same way as me, then it's no wonder why PC game sales is low...


Also take note that, console games is in the same situation as PC games was 5+ years ago (= hard/impossible to patch), wich requires those games to be finished when released (Which they are)...

	29-12-2002 02:17									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree that the reason that PC games are having a hard time is because of the latest buggy game debacles. (Ultima 9, Civ3, Empire Earth, etc.) PC games will rule supreme after Infrogrames and Activision figure out that they should delay the game if it buggy, not release it full of bugs, like Civ3.

BTW, PC RPGs are much better than console RPGs, I remember when I first played Ultima 6 on the ol' 386.

	29-12-2002 02:41									#28
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quote: Originally posted by ADG It's not piracy that kills the games. What kills the games, is the "cheap" games released all the time (I'm talking about all those games released unfinished... filled with bugs). 5+ years ago, it was hard for people to get patches for games (to repeair bugs), therefore back then, the games has to be playable when released. Nowadays it's like they (them who makes/sells the games) think: "Well... everybody has internet access now, so lets get the game out quick, and then we could later just patch the game"... 5+ years ago, most games where finished before they where released, now most games aren't even finished years after release... I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay for bug-filled games... And if everybody else feels the same way as me, then it's no wonder why PC game sales is low... Also take note that, console games is in the same situation as PC games was 5+ years ago (= hard/impossible to patch), wich requires those games to be finished when released (Which they are)...

Good job, you didn't mention Civ3 anywhere in that post

I think that consoles will become big for a while longer than they usually are (due to the declining quality of PC games) because I believe that consumers are willing to purchase a bad game with a label and keep it as opposed to purchasing a bad game (or even a good game!) that crashes on startup. Civ3 falls in the former

Hopefully however SimCity4000 won't be "just another rehash", MoO3 will be all that its expected to be, and RoN will be a huge revolutionary hit in the RTS world.....and hopefully games like those will pop up and breathe live and vitality to the PC gaming industry and consoles will begin to die out (Come on, how many times can you play Halo over and over and over and over and over?) and PCs shall reign in a benevolent heaven

And then it'll start all over again. Oh well.

	29-12-2002 02:57									#29
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hmm I must admit that I have been out of the PC gaming world prefering the streets of vice city for a while... but I say that PC games wont dies its just that there are too many below par games, the PC game industry needs a few big solid games it should start sprutting after that again...

btw Tassadar 5000, you mention RoN as being a revolutionary hit in RTS, what is RoN for one thing and why?

	29-12-2002 03:08									#30
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ADG: Agreed. I bought Black and White, and it was full of bugs. I knew someone who bought CTP and that was full of bugs. He hasn't bought another game since and neither have I. If companies expect us to buy the games, they'll have to release them as solid products. And what do you think will happen when PC games goes down to 1/10th of the gaming industry? Hackers will just shift their work to the bigger market. It's not THAT hard to copy console games. Publishers and game producers, don't learn, they have the potential and oppotunity to make a great game and make great sales and maintain a good reputation. But they choose not to, they choose the fail-without-a-doubt road. There's only one company I would buy games from and that's Rockstar. I don't trust anyone else anymore, simply because of their reputation.

Remember also that Microsoft wants the X-Box to succeed. So Microsoft's next OS could likely cause more problems for game makers who want to make game for PC's, eventually they'll find it too costly and either shift to one of the consoles or just go bust.

Then you have the next generation of game players. The older you get, the less you play games. How many between the age of 8 and 15 play consoles for games rather than on a PC? I'd say about 90%! And because of that, it will get worse for the PC as time goes on.

I think what you are seeing now is the PC gaming industry beginning to die. However, what I think will happen is that you'll be left with only a few companies that can afford to make PC games, and of course, they won't have competition, so they can release the game whenever they want to, and the games won't be small, they'll be massive and everyone who plays games on a PC will buy it, because you KNOW it will be good and be a rock solid game. This will happen in 5-10 years.