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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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this is a great game, but several things really bother me:
corruption
corruption is too high because of distance from the capital. at one point, the british empire was 1/4 the land area on earth. that's 1/5 of the world being one shield cities. not realistic. corruption from distance from capital should be reduced especially for expansionist civs... hey, thats a good idea.
everything naval.
It has never taken 100 years to cross any ocean. Submarines are not invisible, when I have one in another civs waters and they're still in the middle ages, why do they still ask me to leave?
I have Privateers set with attack of 3 and defense of 1, and galleys with one each. No matter what, if I attack them, they attack me when I'm fortified, they've always won (at least the 20 or so times i've had this matchup). There is no way those numbers work.
Galleys taking away a hitpoint or even two from a battleship? These are arrows flying at it! At minimum the battleship could just go right THROUGH the galley. this goes along with spearmen and tanks.
Right of Passage
you don't have it, so why move into my territory every turn, when every turn i just ask you to move?
random resource placement
there are two large continents on a huge map. There is no oil on one of them. great, several hours wasted.
enemy settlers
other civs do not need to fill up the holes in my empire for me, so maybe the primary purpose of other civs should be something else, maybe cultural advancement.
AI wars
It would be fine by me if two other civs fight without me being involved somehow
no city trading
I know this was brought up before, but to get one city from the AI, I'll have to offer roughly 15 good cities.
air units
Fighters only have a range of 6 or whatever it is, but in one turn they can rebase to an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean halfway around the globe.
bombers cant sink ships. if this were really true, Pearl Harbor would have been a devestating attack leaving "battleships badly damaged but now immune to enemy aircraft"
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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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the naval one is not, as I'm talking about attack/defensive values appearing to not work as they should.
I think for resources, there should be some sort of flag that makes sure there is a resource in a certain area/landmass.
Canada and the United States have traded territory, look at the map, you know that straight border? It wasn't always straight. Morocco would also love to take Spanish cities on its coast, which it has requested since its independance. They do that, besides the US and UK, as you've mentioned.
And since you want to b*tch about realism, who as a tank as big as a city? who has a dozen houses in a city of several thousand?
edit: Gibraltar: Britain and Spain.
Last edited by bobbo008 on 29-12-2002 at 03:46
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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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"even in this reality, oil is almost done with, better start to get used to it"
in the real world, there aren't some two alternative power solutions, and no other methods to build tanks or other military options.
"I had a game like this too, i tought it was good fun, forced me to alter my gameplan completely."
Assaulting their tanks/infantry/battleships is not too fun with cavalry, galleons and ironclads just to attempt to gain access to oil.
"Historically, British colonies didn't produce shields. They produced luxury and strategic resources. The Caribbean exported sugar. China exported tea. Africa exported slaves. South America exported silver. If a colonialist wanted a manufactured good, such as textiles, he had to pay to have it shipped from England."
yes, many resources. only several in the game. therefore, in the game, england should not be expansionist if the reason for it in real life isn't in the game. Let's not forget about gold, which is lost to corruption, thus making the gold rushes of california and alaska pointless.
"I always played with corruption off in my games."
thank you
"Is Chicago less corrupt than Seattle becuase it is closer to Washington? Lets face it, the corruption model is horrible and should be completely re done for Civ 4. Yes, We can work around it, yes it is needed for game balance, but my god it is terrible."
thank you
corruption should go to almost none or "communal" in modern times with the advent of instant communication. I don't see why they made this so bad in the first place when they did game testing.
I think Chicago is more corrupt than Seattle, too...
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Lord_Davinator
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Kathmandu
Nov 2000
time: 10:54
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umm... you can use the chicago versus seattle argument in a democracy... but I think its pretty realistic with monarchy and even communism... even with a republic in the ancient era.
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Pyrodrew
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I've always agreed with the too slow navy & excessive distance corruption/waste. At least Police were given anti-corruption. As for distance corruption/waste needed for game balance... it hurts the AI more than the human player. Some may claim it is needed to keep the strong from getting stronger, but that doesn't hold much weight when compared to my biggest complaint in Civ3... the AI always fears the strong and leaves them alone. I applaud Soren for the AI's aggression against the weakest, yet without the AI ever trying to stop the superpower Civ who has "too large of a lead" such as with a balance of power, the AI gets lost (& eventually loses) in it's short-term world. Lack of this element is also a very good reason why games can get boring later... in the beginning you have competition!
A minor flaw with the AI is when the AI declares war against you during your turn... that's just stupid. Don't slap me for a duel when I have the gun.
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Right of Passage
you don't have it, so why move into my territory every turn, when every turn i just ask you to move? |
You may know this, but if you assemble a wall made of units across the thinnest part of your territory the AI will not enter your territory anymore (unless it considers you weak) simply because it cannot reach point B through your territory due to your "unit wall" (of spearman, workers, whatever). Although this is more costly to develop if your territory has "no thin parts" & you may already know all this... but I've found it great in many cases & if I can help but 1 lurker my job is done. 
quote:
I had a game like this too, i tought it was good fun, forced me to alter my gameplan completely. |
quote:
Assaulting their tanks/infantry/battleships is not too fun with cavalry, galleons and ironclads just to attempt to gain access to oil. |
I agree with Notyoueither here.
quote:
enemy settlers
other civs do not need to fill up the holes in my empire for me |
I do it to the AI sometimes, as well as other anti-friendly border tactics the AI does not do/notice, but a human may consider grounds for war. I just adjust to my opponent.
The "unit wall" works great to prevent this as well.
quote:
AI wars
It would be fine by me if two other civs fight without me being involved somehow |
Others have mentioned that they've seen AI wars without them involved. However, I believe a pattern has been noticed that all the AI Civs seem to mimic the human player's peaceful or warlike nature (which ever it may be) too much, regardless if it is Gandhi or Genghis Khan. Therefore, peaceful builders can have thousands of years of world peace (boring for some).
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
this is a great game, but several things really bother me:
corruption
corruption is too high because of distance from the capital. at one point, the british empire was 1/4 the land area on earth. that's 1/5 of the world being one shield cities. not realistic. corruption from distance from capital should be reduced especially for expansionist civs... hey, thats a good idea. |
The game does come with an editor you know. If you don't like the rules, you can change them.
quote:
It has never taken 100 years to cross any ocean.
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And again with the editor
quote:
I have Privateers set with attack of 3 and defense of 1, and galleys with one each. No matter what, if I attack them, they attack me when I'm fortified, they've always won (at least the 20 or so times i've had this matchup). There is no way those numbers work. |
And again
quote:
Galleys taking away a hitpoint or even two from a battleship? These are arrows flying at it! At minimum the battleship could just go right THROUGH the galley. this goes along with spearmen and tanks. |
It seems to me that a couple of guys in an inflatable raft managed to do some pretty serious damage to the USS Cole a short while back.
quote:
Right of Passage
you don't have it, so why move into my territory every turn, when every turn i just ask you to move? |
You probably don't have a strong enough military. If I'm able to kick some serious butt with a civ, they rarely come into my territory.
quote:
random resource placement
there are two large continents on a huge map. There is no oil on one of them. great, several hours wasted. |
Again with the editor.
quote:
enemy settlers
other civs do not need to fill up the holes in my empire for me, so maybe the primary purpose of other civs should be something else, maybe cultural advancement. |
Build up your culture in the area and assimilate them. Free cities!
You can out build the AI any day!
quote:
AI wars
It would be fine by me if two other civs fight without me being involved somehow |
You are playing Civ III right? I see that happening all the time.
quote:
no city trading
I know this was brought up before, but to get one city from the AI, I'll have to offer roughly 15 good cities. |
At first it was possible to do this, but many players found a loophole to exploit it. It's just a way to prevent the game from being to easy. Not to mention that most civs wouldn't give up a city very easily. About the only time it ever happened is when a nation was being severely beaten in a war.
quote:
air units
Fighters only have a range of 6 or whatever it is, but in one turn they can rebase to an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean halfway around the globe. |
You can change the range in the editor.
quote:
bombers cant sink ships. if this were really true, Pearl Harbor would have been a devestating attack leaving "battleships badly damaged but now immune to enemy aircraft" |
Bombers can't sink ships! In fact there's no lethal bombardment at all in the default game. If you have that ability, you're playing with a mod. Oh yes, that's in the editor too.
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Action
Is Chicago less corrupt than Seattle becuase it is closer to Washington?
Lets face it, the corruption model is horrible and should be completely re done for Civ 4.
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First, it's a game and a mere appoximation. More specifically, on a standard map, Chicago is less than 10 tiles away from Washington (less than 10% of a 100-tile map). Let's look at a typical example:
During this game (GOTM5), the Americans started far to the east on this continent, and expanded west (sound familiar?). Chicago is 11 squares west of Washington. Here is the production in 110 AD:
Commerce is 87%. Production is 75%. Corrution and waste are quite manageable, especially considering the poor location of the capital. Meanwhile, just like the historical Americans, Lincoln moved the capital to a more central location in New York. (In history, of course, it was moved from Philadelphia to the then centrally located city of Washington.)
Finally, do not let the semantics of the word "corruption" confuse you. This just represents the percentage of production which is not readily available to the central planners in the capital (you!). This could be due to traditional corruption, but also waste, inefficiency, local resistance to federal control, or other factors beyond your control.
Manifest Destiny
http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/
Last edited by Zachriel on 29-12-2002 at 19:50
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
in the real world, there aren't some two alternative power solutions, and no other methods to build tanks or other military options. |
Within 10 years, hydrogen/fuel cell powered vehicles will start to become commonplace. Eventually all vehicles will be powered using fuel cell technology. The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered.
quote:
yes, many resources. only several in the game. therefore, in the game, england should not be expansionist if the reason for it in real life isn't in the game. Let's not forget about gold, which is lost to corruption, thus making the gold rushes of california and alaska pointless. |
Again with the editor. The resources in the game were kept simplistic so that the general casual player, who are the majority, wouldn't get hopelessly confused. If you want more complexity in that area you can.
quote:
corruption should go to almost none or "communal" in modern times with the advent of instant communication. I don't see why they made this so bad in the first place when they did game testing. |
That's your preference, and that of a very small number of people. If they did things your way, there's be all sorts of people complaing that corruption was to easy. If you don't like it, you have every opportunity to change it.
BTW, Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart etc. has clearly shown that corruption is still a major problem in today's world. Or do you not watch the news. You are aware that the current economic slump in the US in part has been caused by corruption? A lot of "shields" are being wasted in the US economy at the moment due to the stock market meltdown caused by those corrupt business leaders.
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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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"quote:
I have Privateers set with attack of 3 and defense of 1, and galleys with one each. No matter what, if I attack them, they attack me when I'm fortified, they've always won (at least the 20 or so times i've had this matchup). There is no way those numbers work.
And again"
You miss the point. I DID use the editor. I'm saying those stats don't match up (3 to 1).
"It seems to me that a couple of guys in an inflatable raft managed to do some pretty serious damage to the USS Cole a short while back."
You're comparing a boat filled with explosives to bows and arrows, and MAYBE flaming arrows...
"You probably don't have a strong enough military. If I'm able to kick some serious butt with a civ, they rarely come into my territory."
3 times the #2 civ's size, actually.
"Build up your culture in the area and assimilate them. Free cities!
You can out build the AI any day!"
I don't want it to happen, not how to fix it.
"quote:
air units
Fighters only have a range of 6 or whatever it is, but in one turn they can rebase to an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean halfway around the globe.
You can change the range in the editor"
Once again, youve completely missed the point. This could only "work" if the planes and infinite range or roughly 100 range.
"Bombers can't sink ships! In fact there's no lethal bombardment at all in the default game. If you have that ability, you're playing with a mod. Oh yes, that's in the editor too."
that's exactly what I'm saying, some of it should be by default. I don't think I should have to change it. Cannons, DO, in fact, kill people.
"Within 10 years, hydrogen/fuel cell powered vehicles will start to become commonplace. Eventually all vehicles will be powered using fuel cell technology. The days of the internal combustion engine are numbered. "
Exactly what I'm saying. There isn't an option like that in Civ3.
"Again with the editor. The resources in the game were kept simplistic so that the general casual player, who are the majority, wouldn't get hopelessly confused. If you want more complexity in that area you can."
Then it comes down to just how much I love this game... not that much.
"BTW, Enron, Worldcom, Martha Stewart etc. has clearly shown that corruption is still a major problem in today's world. Or do you not watch the news. You are aware that the current economic slump in the US in part has been caused by corruption? A lot of "shields" are being wasted in the US economy at the moment due to the stock market meltdown caused by those corrupt business leaders."
Yes, several million here and there make up, like, what, 50% of the U.S. economy? We're talking about nearly an entire city's "income" gone to corruption.
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
"It seems to me that a couple of guys in an inflatable raft managed to do some pretty serious damage to the USS Cole a short while back."
You're comparing a boat filled with explosives to bows and arrows, and MAYBE flaming arrows... |
Co-opting technology is standard. The Native Americans were certainly not a "Gunpowder Civilization," but they certainly could use a gun, they would buy them from unscrupulous traders, they would steal them, and they were actually given them by Colonialists for fights against other Colonialists.
quote:
"Bombers can't sink ships! In fact there's no lethal bombardment at all in the default game. If you have that ability, you're playing with a mod. Oh yes, that's in the editor too."
that's exactly what I'm saying, some of it should be by default. I don't think I should have to change it. Cannons, DO, in fact, kill people.
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I agree that lethal bombardment for ships would be appropriate, but not for defending Infantry. Yes, bombardment kills people, but as a rule, does not destroy unit cohesion (the ability of the separate elements of a military unit to coordinate activities, morale or esprit de corps being the most important factor).
Last edited by Zachriel on 30-12-2002 at 03:46
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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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first off, to zachziel, great site, anyways:
"Co-opting technology is standard. The Native Americans were certainly not a "Gunpowder Civilization," but they certainly could use a gun, they would buy them from unscrupulous traders, they would steal them, and they were actually given them by Colonialists for fights against other Colonialists."
relating to Custer, the Native Americans actually were better equipped when in shorter range.
"I agree that lethal bombardment for ships would be appropriate, but not for defending Infantry. Yes, bombardment kills people, but as a rule, does not destroy unit cohesion (the ability of the separate elements of a military unit to coordinate activities, morale or esprit de corps being the most important factor)."
Ok, so you can get land units redlined. They can then go to a town or even sit there and be back to full health in a turn or several depending on where and if you leave them alone. That is like reinforcements for free. You should at least be charged in some way for units being repaired/reinforced.
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Beta
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Prowling in a PBEM near you!
Nov 2002
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
yep, these are the same things that have been bothering us for the last 13 months. Don't expect these features to go anywhere soon, or ever. They are part of the game. |
I second Diss' motion. The game's the game.
But if you want my pet beefs - they are the ability to change production and the GL building project.
Like - ooh - we were almost finished the pyramids, but someone beat us to it. So, we'll just arrange some of these blocks, and yes - it is the Colussus.
Or better yet - let's start building a second palace, and in x hundred years from now when we are 10 shields from completing it and have the necessary technology, presto, we will turn it into an observatory.
Or the worst - yes - let's stop building the temple, and turn all those blocks into - an archer!
And - gee - we have this great leader who in one turn can build what normally takes 50.
It's not so much a reality issue I have with this (although that is part of it), but it takes some of the strategy out of the game. Marshalling workers to cut down forests to speed up production, for instance, and tweaking a city's production to the nth degree. Balancing happiness and production as you try to beat other civs to complete a wonder. That's the fun part.
Perhaps a 'wasted' project could be worth say 25% for it's material value. And maybe a GL could speed up production by 33% - but not to one turn. And say you have the ability to pour extra money into a project - perhaps the ability to buy 10% of the wonder's shields.
There - them's my beefs and them's my ideas. 
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peterfharris
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Sydney, Australia
May 1999
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by bobbo008
Right of Passage
you don't have it, so why move into my territory every turn, when every turn i just ask you to move?
AI wars
It would be fine by me if two other civs fight without me being involved somehow
no city trading
I know this was brought up before, but to get one city from the AI, I'll have to offer roughly 15 good cities.
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Re: Right of passage
Have a look at where those AI units are going so you can figure out why they are moving through your territory. They may be passing through your territory to attack another civ or they may be passing through to attack a barbarian settlement. In such cases I normally let them go through without ROP to preserve goodwill. Later, when I get writing, I establish an embassy and agree to ROP unless I want their territory. But, always consider the possibility they may launch a sneak attack, if they are massing up forces in and near your territory you are likely in their gunsights.
If they have no apparent reason to be in your territory they are quite likely to be planning a sneak attack (they might only be exploring in which case it would only be one or two units). I find the AI seldom sends units into my territory for no apparent reason. (BTW If the AI sends boats and lands more than one unit right beside one of your cities that almost invariably means hostile intent)
Re: AI wars
There may be some relationship between you demanding they leave your territory and the frequency of your wars. By frequently demanding they leave you annoy them thus increasing the chance that they will attack you. I only ask them to leave if they have a threatening amount of force in my territory. I see a lot of wars between the AI with no involvement on my part. I also find the AI becomes more aggressive towards me after I have exterminated another civilisation or otherwise been brutal and warlike. (Umh, if you annex the Czechs and Poles then the British and French will get grumpy ) Are you aggressive towards the AI civs?
ROPs are an integral part of diplomacy. ROPs increase the goodwill of the AI civ towards you. If you will not grant any ROPs then you may expect wars.
Re: city trading
In the real world, how many Chinese cities would USA accept in exchange for New York (and how many Chinese cities would the Chinese be prepared to swap)? Me thinks the Chinese would not consider giving any cities. Me thinks USA would not swap New York for the whole of China.
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brianshapiro
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Berkeley
Nov 2001
time: 21:24
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the main unrealism in the game is:
that cities need the government to build everything for them, banks, temples, etc.
i had a republican friend who used to joke about civilization being communist
thats the way corruption becomes unrealistic. who cares if its lost federal worth due to local resistance , etc etc if the city cant build its own banks locally.
thats the way culture becomes unrealistic , because its measured by things you choose to build.
thats the way shields/production is unrealistic.
the basic mechanisms of the game are unrealistic
producing all of your cities buildings.
choosing political revolutions from a listbox.
picking what discoveries you will discover next.
moving military units on a turn by turn basis.
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brianshapiro
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Berkeley
Nov 2001
time: 21:24
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anyway thats why corruption becomes unrealistic . as if federal corruption with distance has anything to do with whether los angeles can prosper culturally or economically
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bobbo008
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The Wisconsonian Empire
Dec 2002
time: 23:24
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"Have a look at where those AI units are going so you can figure out why they are moving through your territory. They may be passing through your territory to attack another civ or they may be passing through to attack a barbarian settlement"
No barbs left and i'm all alone on the right side (no x-wrapping, i believe its called). It's always like a pikeman and a settler.
"In the real world, how many Chinese cities would USA accept in exchange for New York (and how many Chinese cities would the Chinese be prepared to swap)? Me thinks the Chinese would not consider giving any cities. Me thinks USA would not swap New York for the whole of China."
You can't compare trading those, one, arguably the most important city on the planet, and the, for the most part, backwards smaller cities of China.
"Also if there was no corruption then the Fobidden Palace would be completely useless"
you say that like the Forbidden Palace MUST be in the game.
"picking what discoveries you will discover next."
I agree, it's kind of hard to know what you're about to discover or plan on "discovering" it.
Basically, like I said before, "corruption should be almost communal at the advent of instant communication" or something like that...
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brianshapiro
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Berkeley
Nov 2001
time: 21:24
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im about 23 now but ive been playing the game since junior high school , since then ive been thinking of ways to make a game like this more realistic and work better. but i wont paste half my ideas on this board , because they are large fundamental changes and unless i work as a designer for firaxis id rather start programming my own game which im confident i can do . btw if anyone is intereested in creating this with me leave a message
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29-12-2002 02:38
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