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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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David Floyd:
basically the same thing except maybe even more simple... Thomas Jefferson was relatively a libertarian, right? State's rights, personal freedom, free trade, etc... those ideas are pre-marxist and conservative considering the United States was founded on such ideals.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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So libertarian ideals have always existed in the american political culture and are thus, conservative... as opposed to the socialist progressiveness
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Speer, from an American context, Libertarianism and conservatism are in no way related.
Conservatives claim to support economic freedom, yet still support taxes, generally support social welfare policies and military spending, and things of that nature. They also claim to support personal freedom, but this is laughable, as they favor laws against homosexuality, drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc., and are often in favor of state sponsored religion and strong police powers.
Libertarians take a completely opposite position to all of the above, so I fail to see how a conservative can be likened to a Libertarian, politically speaking.
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Hurricane
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Arctic Hill
May 2001
time: 07:24
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#1 You are a social liberal. Like all liberals, you believe in individual freedom as a central objective - but you believe that lack of economic opportunity, education, healthcare etc. can be just as damaging to liberty as can an oppressive state. As a result, social liberals are generally the most outspoken defenders of human rights and civil liberties, and combine this with support for a mixed economy, with an enabling state providing public services to ensure that people's social rights as well as their civil liberties are upheld.
Click for more information
#2 You are a market liberal. You adhere to the traditional liberal belief in freedom, and take this to mean negative rather than positive freedom - i.e. a slimmed-down state is the best guarantor of freedom. You will therefore support a laissez-faire economic policy, and you will be reasonably tolerant on the social front - though less emphatically so than social liberals.
Click for more information
#3 You adhere to the Third Way. The Third Way is a fairly nebulous concept, but it rests on the idea of combining economic efficiency - i.e. a market economy with some intervention - with social responsibility. The focus is emphatically on the community as a whole, and not necessarily equality per se. Adherents of the Third Way range from moderate to conservative in their social views, and have recently been willing to take a "tough" line on a range of social issues.
Click for more information
#4 You are a libertarian conservative. You hold that the free market is the best way of organising economic activity, but you combine this with adherence to more traditional social values of authority and duty.
Click for more information
#5 You are a social democrat. Like other socialists, you believe in a more economically equal society - but you have jettisoned any belief in the idea of the planned economy. You believe in a mixed economy, where the state provides certain key services and where the productivity of the market is harnessed for the good of society as a whole. Many social democrats are hard to distinguish from social liberals, and they share a tolerant social outlook.
Click for more information
#6 You are an anarcho-capitalist. Anarcho-capitalists take the Jeffersonian belief that "that government is best which governs least", and extend it - "that government is best which governs not at all". The theory of anarcho-capitalism is that the market can replace the state as a regulator of individual behaviour (resulting in private courts, private policing etc.).
Click for more information
#7 You are an ecologist or green. You believe that the single greatest challenge of our time is the threat to our natural environment, and you feel that radical action must be taken to protect it - whether in the enlightened self-interest of humanity (in the tradition of 'shallow ecologism') or, more radically, from the perspective of the ecosystem as a whole, without treating humans as the central species (deep ecologism).
Click for more information
#8 You are a Christian democrat - or, in the UK, a "One Nation conservative"; in other words, although you share the usual conservative belief in stability and duty, you believe that such duties include a responsibility on the part of the better-off to help those who are less fortunate. You will be socially conservative, but in favour of a mixed economy where the state does have a role in providing public services. Christian democracy arose after World War II, succeeding more doctrinaire Catholic parties dating from the 1870s.
Click for more information
#9 You are a classical socialist, believing in equality of outcome as a principle. This might mean greater equality (e.g. Old Labour), or as close to absolute equality as possible. However, you will believe in an extensive public sector, covering not just public services (transport, healthcare etc.) but probably also the 'commanding heights' of industry (e.g. iron and steel). Your views on personal morality will be reasonably tolerant, in general, but there is considerable variation within this political group.
Click for more information
#10 You are a communist. You believe, at least in theory, in absolute equality of income - and you oppose the whole capitalist system per se. You want to abolish the market economy and replace it with one in which the workers (usually meaning the state) control the building blocks of the economy. Your views on personal morality will vary; traditional communists tended to be more authoritarian, while modern "eurocommunists" tend to take a liberal line.
Click for more information
#11 You are a fascist. You combine a strong belief in the nation with authoritarian social values, and a willingness to impose your views upon others. You strongly oppose immigration, and are willing to take radical action to combat it.
Click for more information
#12 You are an anarcho-communist, aiming for a society without the state, based on small, decentralised groups living communally.
Click for more information
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Bereta_Eder
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i clicked on the link and a hell of pop ups ensuied. i frantically started to close them all, including, apparently the window with the survey. and im not clicking on it again.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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August Borms!
Dave Floyd:
Yes but this is a poll from the European standpoint and in Europe there are more diverse political differences. No significant number of people in the united states are marxist. Our left-wing groups, the Democrats and even the Green Party are still relatively capitalistic, when viewed compared to communists and socialists.
The United States is naturally more libertarian than Europe and we have always been since 1776. This causes our libertarianism to be somewhat conservative... don't think about American divisions between libertarians and conservatives... but think from a European and specifically marxist standpoint that libertarian capitalists are conservative as opposed to the progressive (opposite of conservative) socialists.
Don't think conservative as favouring school prayer conservative... think conservative as the opposite of marxism... thus, libertarians are conservative.
thanks
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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AS,
First off, I just had a similar argument with Drogue over what a Libertarian is and stands for.
But anyway,
quote:
The United States is naturally more libertarian than Europe and we have always been since 1776. |
And again, the US cannot in any way be called Libertarian. The US may have supported a couple of ideals that libertarians would agree with, but the US has also supported ideas that socialists and communists would agree with. Does that make the US communistic? Of course not.
quote:
This causes our libertarianism to be somewhat conservative... |
Again, by the same argument, the US is also somewhat communist.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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David Floyd:
Alright we need to make sure we got a basic ground-work going on here... do you consider the jeffersonians to be significantly libertarian?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Not really. They owned slaves, after all.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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Dave:
You're thinking too much from an American perspective... think from the perspective of biased, anti-capitalist marxist europeans... from a leftist position, libertarians, being capitalist, and embodying the ideals of the American republic (even if they were not realized a la slavery), are non-progressive... they are conservative as they hold onto the 'ancient' idea of capitalism.
thanks
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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quote:
You're thinking too much from an American perspective... think from the perspective of biased, anti-capitalist marxist europeans... from a leftist position, libertarians, being capitalist, and embodying the ideals of the American republic (even if they were not realized a la slavery), are non-progressive... they are conservative as they hold onto the 'ancient' idea of capitalism. |
I don't really care who's perspective you are viewing things from. The point is, Libertarianism is about freedom. If one does not support freedom in a consistent manner, then one is not a Libertarian. Simple as that.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:24
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David Floyd:
Europeans... what you expect?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
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Well that's a good point, supporting freedom in a consistent manner is not really the strong suit of most Europeans, or at least that's the trend I see here.
Then again, that applies to most Americans, too.
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30-12-2002 12:51
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