30-12-2002 04:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Arguing about nukes is pointless. If a nuclear war starts, no one wins. Although in a US vs. China nuclear war, China would lose much worse. A US attack sub would take out China's only Xia in the first 30 seconds, and it's possible that a US first strike with nuclear armed B-2s and SSBNs right off the coast could almost completely disarm China's ICBM force. We'd still probably lose some major West Coast cities, though. In any case, any forseeable US vs. China war would be an air/naval war primarily. You can't even begin to argue that China could present a naval challenge, and I think it's sufficiently clear that China's obsolete air force (with under 200 reasonably modern fighters) could hope to take on the USAF.

Heheheheh

	30-12-2002 04:56									#32
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Well, what part of what I said is inaccurate?

Is it false that the US Navy is vastly superior to the People's Liberation Army Navy?

Is it false that the US enjoys a large technological advantage?

Is it false that the PLAAF is a large force of mostly obsolete or obsolescent aircraft?

Is it false that China only has 1 Xia-class SSBN?

Is it false that that SSBN would be easily destroyed by an American SSN?

Is it false that a US first-strike could at least partially disarm China?

All of those items are undoubtedly true, except for possibly the last one, which is true in my opinion, but I could easily be incorrect.

	30-12-2002 05:02									#33
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I think China is too big for the USAF to subdue...

certainly if Taiwan decides to stay on the sideline out of fear of becoming China's primary target (assuming a war with China would not have started because of Taiwan).

	30-12-2002 05:29									#34
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SM,

Of course the USAF can't defeat China. But the USAF can defeat the PLAAF, and can put the hurt on China's coastal (ie, most significant) regions.

And if a US-China war isn't over Taiwan, then what would it be over? Korea? In that case, the US has an even bigger base. Ditto Japan. If China invades Vietnam again, we wouldn't be involved, but if so, again, a bigger base. Ditto India on a huge scale, and the same for Russia.

So saying that without Taiwan in the war the US would have no bases in the area to strike from is pretty obvious (unless South Korea or Japan let us base out of their countries), but not exactly the point.

	30-12-2002 08:18									#35
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Getting back to Turkey:

Yeah, the Turks have more troops than any other NATO country outside the US. But if it came to blows (and ignoring nukes), who would you put your money on - Turkey or Britain? Turkey or France? Turkey or Germany? If you take Turkey in any of those scenarios, I'll gladly take the other side. Hell, North Korea has the fifth largest army in the world in terms of manpower. Would you say they are the fifth most powerful country?

	30-12-2002 09:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Turkey or France?

Turkey!!!!!

	30-12-2002 09:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Just heard this on FOX, can it be true? Second only to the US is what I assume they are saying. More troops than Germany or GB? Good for them, but why does Turkey need such a large army? Anyone have a chart on NATO force levels?

hi ,



the French rank no two on active standing forces

have a nice day



what has this world come to , the French have the largest standing army in europe

	30-12-2002 09:36									#38
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panang, I think some might consider most of Turkey to be an Asian country more than a European one, as most of it is outside of Europe. That could be where the discrepancy lies. France may have the largest standing army in Europe, but my understanding is that Turkey is the second-largest in NATO, after the US.

	30-12-2002 09:42									#39
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It seems to me that France has almost always (for a couple hundred years anyway) had the largest standing army in Europe (aside Russia). Say what you want about quality, though

	30-12-2002 09:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd panang, I think some might consider most of Turkey to be an Asian country more than a European one, as most of it is outside of Europe. That could be where the discrepancy lies. France may have the largest standing army in Europe, but my understanding is that Turkey is the second-largest in NATO, after the US.

hi ,

, check the numbers with the us state dept , , well if you would count the reserves and every one in the security establishment like police , state police , and so on , then maybe yes , but they dont even come close , ......

have a nice day

	30-12-2002 09:54									#41
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I don't think Turkish quality of troops is that bad, they have some decent equipment and an airforce with lots of US troops too. Historically the Turkish army has been very tough- consider during WWI people thought the OE was a joke and wouldn't be able to amount for much. It still destroyed a British army in Iraq, stalemated Russia in the Northeast, crushed the Allies at Gallipoli. Then when Turkish War of Independence occured later on, Kemal Ataturk against amazing on won a victory on his own and imposed a major humiliation upon Greece, allowing Turkey to gain better terms at the treaty of Lausanne(sp?) I wouldn't say Turkey's troop quality is quite at the level of Britain's or Germany's, but I wouldn't count on the Turkish army doing too badly if Turkey were to be engaged in a war.

Of course, Turkey's main defense is it's strong diplomatic policy. Turkey's alliances with the US and Israel pretty much guarantee Turkey's stability.

	30-12-2002 23:59									#42
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Right now I'd bet on Turkey against any European country. Their army is fiercely disciplined, unbelievably nationalistic, and based in a culture that emphasizes submission to authority and unquestioning sacrifice. Couple that with the arms they've aquired from the US,and they are one fierce force.

	31-12-2002 00:07									#43
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Pfffttt... last time we attacked them on expansionist war we sent them all the way to Ankara.

Just a bunch of rugclothed Greeks against an empire of 60 million and we almost got their capital.

And now they are ruined and we are most powerful than even.
Pfffttt...

	31-12-2002 00:07									#44
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They could spank Greece in a heartbeat, pattycakes.

	31-12-2002 00:13									#46
	Got spare money?

They'd smush you like a bug, and you know it.

	31-12-2002 00:14									#47
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Dont worry for your grandmother Imran

	31-12-2002 00:16									#48
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Besides, its immensly funny to see them good nice puppies in front of the EU.

Greece says jump and they say how high

	31-12-2002 00:18									#49
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No need to be jealous Pattycakes. I know it is frightful to be near such a powerful army .

	31-12-2002 00:19									#50
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They cant even beat women and children kurds.

The only frightful thing about them is their breath

Turkey is in ruins while Greece prospers and thats the way it is

	31-12-2002 00:19									#51
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If you are so confident, why don't you fight them? Oh right, because they'd be at Athens so fast, you wouldn't have even finished your Souvlaki .

	31-12-2002 00:21									#52
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We leave the killing to you and your buddy Osama. And killing you are having

We prefer security and progress

	31-12-2002 00:22									#53
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Then why do you have neither?

	31-12-2002 00:23									#54
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Oh im sorry. We just had 2 buildings going down in flames and thousands of our citizens killed and i didnt notice....

terribly sorry

	31-12-2002 00:25									#55
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Says the country that is mired in 1950 technology and prevents anything from being blown up by giving terrorists preferential treatment. Also is there anything worth blowing up in that waste of a country of yours?

I wonder how you can possibly live in that backwater... then realize it is you .

	31-12-2002 00:27									#56
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just vile

	31-12-2002 00:35									#57
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Stop beating up on yourself and your country. We know you are vile, but you don't have to be so sad about it .

	31-12-2002 00:37									#58
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Just getting a kick from seeing you trying to troll me

	31-12-2002 00:39									#59
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Same here...

Don't you know it doesn't work. We all know you are a troll-monster .

	31-12-2002 00:39									#60
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While trying to be a good "american" as well.
But no matter how much you praize Reagan and the Republicans, you'll never be "white".

So you might as well try to fight for what you need.