01-01-2003 14:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Germanics were IE, yes (technically they originated from some place in Africa ), but IIRC they spread from the region near Denmark into the regions they now occupy. The Germanic language originally diverged in this region.

I won't argue against this, but there is a lot of controversy about this point, and almost as many theories about where and when Germanic diverged from IE as there are theorists. There seems to be some evidence that wherever they diverged, they had frequent contact with the Slavic language group as well as the Baltic group. Most of the theories put them a good deal east and somewhat south of Denmark, though as you say the theory that they spread from Denmark to the rest of Scandanavia makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately there is not very much clear archeological evidence to back anyone's theory, as this all occurred prehistorically, and archeologists are notorioulsy weak at interpreting the information gleaned from prehistoric sites. Another problem is defining when a language has diverged from another, which is a gradual process and difficult to define authoritatively.

	01-01-2003 14:10									#32
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Linguistics is a "social science." Making assertions about linguistics implies not making authoritative claims. Hell, it's almost as bad as economics.

	01-01-2003 15:14									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker There is a breed of lifeguard dog that will go out and rescue a human when it's thrown in the water. Even if the dog has never been in the water before in it's life. Anybody know this dog? It's an amazing looking dog, it has sheep like black fur and is pretty big.

The Newfoundland dog?

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I have never heard of this, and it is fascinating. I wonder why they lose the instinct? Does it have something to do with being inside the womb maybe where the environment is different from the world?

I hate to cite an article written by a Swedish scientist here , but there's the best explanation of the diving reflex I could google: "...the reflex may have been important million years ago when our ancestors lived in a different environment perhaps. The newborn baby reacts by using these reflexes when necessary. As the child matures the upper part of the brain, the cortex is taking over and these basic reflex reactions will disappear." (waterbabies.org)

And, as it says in the cited article, parents should not try baby swimming at home on their own. It may be dangerous if not done right. The temperature of the water must be exactly right, and the water must be clean (there are waterborne diseases).

	01-01-2003 15:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well in America we don't get much schooling on the Dark Ages period in Europe, so recently on the public television I've been watching this show called, "The Western Tradition" and it has to be the most fascinating history show I've seen in a long time. Basically our education in world history goes from the Roman Empire and then makes a big jump to the colonization of the New World, and occasionally a paragraph about Charlemagne is thrown in. Even at the college level it's pretty sparse. So I've always wondered just exactly how things went after the fall of the Western Empire and it's really fascinating because everything is interconnected and not like a period of chaos where everything was forgotten about. Couple of random thoughts about this period: 1) You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys. I mean the wealth was traveling from west to east but they kept your asses intact for a few hundred years against all those rampaging Asian horse invaders. 2) I think Turkish chicks are so hot because they have the best mix of genetics, Contantinople was the equivalent of London, New York, and Paris combined in its day so everybody went there seeking fame and glory. 3) The living situation for the average Eurocom was horrible! They died at age 25, and often were freezing and starving to death. Packs of wolves would literally roam into towns (even Paris) and take them over. No wonder the settlers eradicated wolves when they came to the New World. 4) Time was relative and people lived for the moment. There was no standardized system of keeping time. 5) Most childhood nursery rhymes seem to come from the Dark Ages. -Little Red Riding Hood (the wolves) -Ring Around the Rosie (I think that they used to carry around Posey flowers in their pockets to either protect them from the Black Plague or to ward off the smell of all the death). -Evil Trees that had faces (eurocoms would often venture out to the forest never to be seen again and this is because there were sinkholes everywhere that they would disappear into) 6) The Italian City States were the first to employ the skyscrapers en masse, sometimes cities had up to 70 towers that were built by the feudal families as a show of thier power, over the town. 7) Most people were starving to death but the feudal families were so rich that they often overate and suffered from gout. Yuck! Let's talk about Dark Ages Euroland because it is fascinating. Hit me with your fascinating facts. Sorry if this is all old to you Eurocoms but this is all new to me so it's an amazing rediscovery.

This was a spoof program, right? What you've written above is riddled with errors to the point that it's almost hilarious.

	01-01-2003 16:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Well in America we don't get much schooling on the Dark Ages period in Europe,

So it would seem....

quote: 3) The living situation for the average Eurocom was horrible! They died at age 25, and often were freezing and starving to death. Packs of wolves would literally roam into towns (even Paris) and take them over. No wonder the settlers eradicated wolves when they came to the New World.

While most people probably wouldn't live beyond 40, analysis of teeth in British Saxon graves suggests that their nutrition and general health was pretty good in the main. The "average" life would be to enjoy fair health then drop dead of a brief fever or infection one winter.

quote: 4) Time was relative and people lived for the moment. There was no standardized system of keeping time.

Is that so surprising? They had no clocks, after all. Post- Bede they had a historical record of time, and calendars were in place. What more did they need?

quote: 5) Most childhood nursery rhymes seem to come from the Dark Ages. -Little Red Riding Hood (the wolves)

Written by Perrault in 1697 as a morality tale.

quote: -Ring Around the Rosie (I think that they used to carry around Posey flowers in their pockets to either protect them from the Black Plague or to ward off the smell of all the death).

"Ring 'o Roses" refers to the haemorrhages that would form around the throats of plague victims. The posies were to ward off the miasma (the evil humours rising from the earth thought to cause illness).
It's not a dark ages work, however- it dates back to medieval times, so somewhere between 1350 and 1665. Half a millennium after the Dark Ages.

quote: -Evil Trees that had faces (eurocoms would often venture out to the forest never to be seen again and this is because there were sinkholes everywhere that they would disappear into)

"Often"? That makes Dark Ages life sound like some sort of early 80's PC platform game. I suspect that this was scarcely a common occurance, and that such sinkholes would have been swiftly identified by the locals.

quote: 7) Most people were starving to death but the feudal families were so rich that they often overate and suffered from gout. Yuck!

In Dark Ages Britain, famine was the exception, not the norm. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records some years of famine, and there is evidence of severe famine in the climactic upheaval between 535- 540AD, but these were rare. The notion of most of the population being in a state of constant malnutrition isn't supported by archaelogical evidence.

Secondly- Gout isn't simply the preserve of banquetting medieval nobles. My father has suffered from it, and he's hardly some overstuffed bloater wolfing down mead a peacock's tongues.

quote: Let's talk about Dark Ages Euroland because it is fascinating. Hit me with your fascinating facts. Sorry if this is all old to you Eurocoms but this is all new to me so it's an amazing rediscovery.

Are you really talking about the Dark Ages at all? Or some bastard Hollywood fantasy about pseudo-medieval times?

	01-01-2003 16:33									#36
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Its teeed!

quote: 1) You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys. I mean the wealth was traveling from west to east but they kept your asses intact for a few hundred years against all those rampaging Asian horse invaders.

Byzantines used to make fun of their poverty and chaos for more than a milenia, so they were (naturally) pissed.

quote: I think Turkish chicks are so hot because they have the best mix of genetics, Contantinople was the equivalent of London, New York, and Paris combined in its day so everybody went there seeking fame and glory.

Not really mixing since there was excrusiating segragation between the turks the greeks and the armenians

some of the turkish chiks are hot though.
particularly one of the turkish cypriote chicks shouting for reunification of cyprus was hot.
I'd unite.

quote: The living situation for the average Eurocom was horrible! They died at age 25, and often were freezing and starving to death. Packs of wolves would literally roam into towns (even Paris) and take them over. No wonder the settlers eradicated wolves when they came to the New World.

That why French men always travel around Paris with a juicy bone. SO they can throw it to the wolves and distract them long enough for them to enter to a bistro.

they always get their keys and a juicy bone

quote: Time was relative and people lived for the moment. There was no standardized system of keeping time.

solar clocks were there from antiquity

quote: Most childhood nursery rhymes seem to come from the Dark Ages.

maybe?

quote: Evil Trees that had faces (eurocoms would often venture out to the forest never to be seen again and this is because there were sinkholes everywhere that they would disappear into)

evil trees and the story is a alegory for capitalism

quote: The Italian City States were the first to employ the skyscrapers en masse, sometimes cities had up to 70 towers that were built by the feudal families as a show of thier power, over the town.

but you coludnt succesfuly suicide from them. still too short

quote: Most people were starving to death but the feudal families were so rich that they often overate and suffered from gout. Yuck!

absolutely true. then socialism changed everything and all suffer from gout

	01-01-2003 16:41									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp While most people probably wouldn't live beyond 40, analysis of teeth in British Saxon graves suggests that their nutrition and general health was pretty good in the main. The "average" life would be to enjoy fair health then drop dead of a brief fever or infection one winter.

One of the major reasons for low life expectancy was high infant mortality. Once you managed to survive childhood, the chances were you'd live a fairly long time.

quote: Is that so surprising? They had no clocks, after all. Post- Bede they had a historical record of time, and calendars were in place. What more did they need?

In the UK there was no 'Standard' time until the introduction of the railways.

quote: "Ring 'o Roses" refers to the haemorrhages that would form around the throats of plague victims. The posies were to ward off the miasma (the evil humours rising from the earth thought to cause illness). It's not a dark ages work, however- it dates back to medieval times, so somewhere between 1350 and 1665. Half a millennium after the Dark Ages.

Actually, according to Snopes, the earliest reference to the rhyme is in the 19th Century. The first reference to a plague connection wasn't until the 1960s.

	01-01-2003 17:13									#38
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quote: Originally posted by redbaron Actually, according to Snopes, the earliest reference to the rhyme is in the 19th Century. The first reference to a plague connection wasn't until the 1960s.

The shortfall of Snopes' logic is that it can be summed up as follows- "if it isn't written down in a book, it didn't exist". By that logic, all nursery rhymes are Victorian, even the ones clearly referring to obscure pieces of medieval history such as "Little Jack Horner".

The reason why there are several variants that lack plague references is simple- sanitised versions by Victorians that quickly came and went. The bleak and brutal old version from oral tradition proved to be a survivor.

	01-01-2003 17:34									#39
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Oh boy- that Snopes page is a riot. Check this out-

quote: The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on dancing among many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in North America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was called in the United States the "play-party."

The nineteenth century? He's taking the piss, right? If not, he's about 300 years out, so his attempt to claim that such nursey rhymes are modern inventions is already starting to look decidedly wobbly.

	01-01-2003 18:46									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo their language diverged in their relative isolation with Celtic, Latin, and later French influences.

English has almost no Celtic influence.

	01-01-2003 19:02									#41
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It's great to see one of Apolyton's best returning to the OT. welcome back.

	01-01-2003 19:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Man, so much information! Thanks for the contributions. Okay, I hope this doesn't sound racist, but in terms of overall strength (intelligence, physical ability, personal characteristics such as determination), I have to say that the Germans seem to have been the most gifted group that the planet has ever seen. I say this in the same spirit as I always say that I think Turkish chicks are the hottest on the planet. I am a white guy but am not German by the way. (Scottish and Italian).

Genetically the English are more Celtic than German, if you were thinking of lumping the national accomplishments of the English in with that of the Germans, Dutch, and Scandinavians.

In terms of physical abilities I'd have to say that Africans are superior. When is the last time a German beat out someone of African ancestry in the boxing ring? The main reason that Africans don't dominate the Olympics is that most African countries can't afford the training and drugs needed to produce large numbers of competitors and so many of the events are specialized to an extent that only a few countries activley practice for the event.

In terms of intelligence orientals seem to be dominating the international achievement tests.

No one in their right mind wants to encourage the Germans to exercise their "determination", a personal characterisitic that is generally considered synonymous with "will". We all know what happened the last time they inflicted their "will" on the world. Let sleeping dogs lie.

	01-01-2003 22:45									#43
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quote: Genetically the English are more Celtic than German

Anglo-Saxon mixed with Norman...that´s what an Englishmen is. The English (not Irish, Scottish, Welsh) aren´t Celtic at all.

quote: In terms of physical abilities I'd have to say that Africans are superior. When is the last time a German beat out someone of African ancestry in the boxing ring?

I assume you don´t count kickboxing...

	01-01-2003 22:49									#44
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quote: Genetically the English are more Celtic than German

Genetically the English are nearly indistinguishable from Frieslanders. However they are poles apart from the Welsh, who are of Celtic descent.

	01-01-2003 23:22									#45
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It depends, crunch. much of the population of England is still indegenous British population. But since noone's able or wants to distinguish people that way, it's redundant.

	01-01-2003 23:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Anglo-Saxon mixed with Norman...that´s what an Englishmen is. The English (not Irish, Scottish, Welsh) aren´t Celtic at all.

For the love of God, how often do I have to repeat the same thing over and over? A gene marker study was done in the 1990s comparing the prevalence of a gene more commonly found among western Germanic peoples than among non-germanic western europeans, i.e., the French and Spanish. The gene was present in abut 18% of the population of the Netherlands, Denmark and coastal Germany, but in only 6% of the French and Spanish. In England the gene was found in only 8% of the population, indicating that the population of England is only about 20% closer genetically to Germans than are the Celtic French and Spanish. The prevalence of the gene was identical in Scotland and Ireland. Remember that all threee nations were at one time or another occupied by the Vikings.

	01-01-2003 23:28									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel It depends, crunch. much of the population of England is still indegenous British population. But since noone's able or wants to distinguish people that way, it's redundant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm

quote: It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's **** acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side. And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

	01-01-2003 23:59									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm quote: It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's **** acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side. And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

I don't have a link to the study I'm referring to because it was published in a medical journal, JAMA. I don't think that the research was funded by the BBC. In my experience when research is funded by an organization with an agenda they get the results they paid for. Also I read the actual scientific article, not the interpretation of it by a non-scientist. In the study I read the marker was not a Y-linked marker, but was present on an autosome.

A gene marker study in Columbia found that the population was closely linked to the Spanish by Y chromosome markers, but the mitochondrial DNA was almost exclusively native american. The implication of the study was that the Spanish probably exterminated the male population, then bred with the native women. However since the study I quoted uses autosomes, while the one you quoted used Y-chromosomes that can't be said here.

	02-01-2003 00:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Angles are from south of Denmark... Saxons are from the area of Sachsen in germany

Actually, the Saxon tribe that invaded Britain lived on the North Sea, near the Angles and Jutes. All three tribes. Those who remained behind eventually moved South East as the Germans pushed back the Slavic hordes.

	02-01-2003 01:12									#50
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SD, I think the key point is that the BBC study only looked at the Y-chromosome marker - which according to the article is passed from father to son. The broader study suggests plenty of Celtic DNA, but only from Celtic women.

This makes sense to me because I can hardly believe that German warriors sailing to Britain would have taken with them enough women for all the warriors to have wives. So they probably spared the women of Britain even as they killed their men and boys that came into their power.

The bulk of the British population probably fled before the advancing Germans. When St. Patrick landed in Northwest Gaul in the summer of 407, he found nary man nor beast over the whole area that he travelled. This was the summer just after the German invasioin of Gaul that began when the Germans crossed the frozen Rhine on Jan. 1. I suspect something similar happened in Britain.

	02-01-2003 01:53									#51
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Its not a BBC study. It was performed by University College, London.

	02-01-2003 02:30									#52
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Azazel,

Thanks for the welcome back. Who is that beautiful woman in your avatar? I can't make out who the other person is.

Doc,

While I'd agree that there are other groups who are superior in certain categories (such as Africans normally physically superior) I feel that Germans are in the Top 3 in most categories -- having the best balance of all the best attributes. In athletics they seem to excel in everything they do. People like Detlef Schrempf, Boris Becker, Steffi Graf (nice legs ), come to mind as your stereotypical, very strong, very coordinated, highly intelligent, and highly determined German.

Though I will agree that Africans would be destroying everybody in sports if they had access to proper training, nutrition, and facilities.

Laz,

This isn't some Hollywood rendition type thing. This is a university level program that is done in an academic sense and every single contributor to this program is a PHD specializing in Western History. The narrator himself is a European educated at Cambridge and now teaches at UCLA. What they basically do is take medieval artwork and then narrate a lecture over the top of it.

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/weber/

But like I said we don't get that much education of this time period, and secondly, they have to squeeze alot of info about alot of different people into one show, so of course there is alot of generalizing going on. Most of it focuses on mainland Europe, mainly France, then Italy, and then the central areas.

This isn't meant as a joke or a putdown of Euros as I'm simply finding alot of this information very interesting. In any case alot of this is up to interpretation, and I don't think most people have studied this time period and have your expertise.

Still I believe those medieval towers were the skyscrapers of their time. Skyscrapers are usually put up by people or companies enjoying wealth and excess, and often are put up in a binge of "mine is bigger than yours." Often they are more symbolic than anything. The situation in Italy parallels the situation in New York in the 1920's.

Then there is the building frenzy of the churches, which occured when the church dominated life and was raking in serious money. They built their own huge, high rise towers after being influenced by the Muslims.

	02-01-2003 02:35									#53
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Here's the list of advisors:

http://www.learner.org/catalog/prod...wtcreators.html

	02-01-2003 02:44									#54
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good thread. I've always been fascinated with the dark ages too from a history stand point. I can't explain why. Maybe I'm just morbid . I'll have to catch up on this thread.

	02-01-2003 03:46									#55
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Ted- if you're really interested in pre-medieval history, try these resources out. They're all English- I have no expertise in European history outside the UK, but I've been researching 8th-10th century English history for 5 years.

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle- http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html

It's an original source, and essential reading.

Then balance that with the following essential textbooks-

Stenton, Sir Frank W.: "Anglo-Saxon England" (Oxford University Press)

John, Eric- "Reassessing Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University Press).

Stenton's work is the massively-detailed and rigorously researched classic text. John's covers the bits that Stenton got wrong, or covered incompletely.

	02-01-2003 03:55									#56
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Thanks for the sources Laz, I will check those out.

Speaking of which, Excalibur was on last night, unfortunatley it was in Spanish but it was still fun to watch.

	02-01-2003 07:01									#57
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There is one word of Celtic origin in English- breeches/britches from the Celtic brecan. All the rest are loan words from Scots Gaelic or Erse, although cwm from Welsh is used in geography occasionally, if I recall.

The Dark Ages is now seen pretty much as a misnomer- people used it in the past to compare the period adversely with the supposedly golden age of the Roman Empire. Naturally, they chose to ignore the continuation of learning/philosophy in Ireland, and the artistic/scientific golden age of the Cordoban Caliphate. They also chose to denigrate the arts/literature of the Vikings and the Saxons.

The hilarious picture of the relentlessly grim Dark Ages in Europe is very funny indeed. One wonders how with such seeming short lifespans, through infant mortality, famine, disease, nomad invasions and, ah, roaming wolf packs, Europe ever achieved anything.

I believe the plague afecting the Byzantine Empire was allegedly shown to be to do with the Empire's taste for precious goods- it seems to have spread from Africa, along with the ivory/gold trade.

	02-01-2003 07:29									#58
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Well, Molly, except for Charlemagne, Europe really achieved nothing of note for hundreds of yeard. Cite one thing that the Europeans did to advance civilization from 500 to 1000.

Last edited by Ned on 02-01-2003 at 10:45

	02-01-2003 07:33									#59
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Dark Ages don't mean that advancements don't continue. What they mean is that old knowledge is lost. Writing, religion, architecture, farming methods, all were lost for a time, and then rediscovered/invented/learned.

	02-01-2003 08:02									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dark Ages don't mean that advancements don't continue. What they mean is that old knowledge is lost. Writing, religion, architecture, farming methods, all were lost for a time, and then rediscovered/invented/learned.

I'm not sure that agricultural techniques were lost in the transition from empire to dark ages, but engineering definitely suffered. I think it is apparent that the Roman army was probably the major engineering/architectural organization of the times and when it withdrew and dissolved there was nothing to replace it.