02-01-2003 09:23									#61
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Here's an interesting story concerning agriculture. It is actually ancient history though.

The Egyptians grew a kind of wheat called Kamut. It was a tough kind of plant and grew well in the environment.

Years later, the Greeks under Alexander invaded and took the place over. They replaced the wheat there with Greek (durum) wheat, which is what we all in the West grow and eat. Kamut ceased to be grown

This is where it get interesting.

quote: Following WWII, a US airman claimed to have taken a handful of this grain from a stone box in a tomb near Dashare, Egypt. Thirty-six kernels of the grain were given to a friend who mailed them to his father, a Montana wheat farmer. The farmer planted and harvested a small crop and displayed the grain as a novelty at the local fair. Believing the legend that the giant grain kernels were taken from an Egyptian tomb, the grain was dubbed "King Tut's Wheat." But soon the novelty wore off and this ancient grain was all but forgotten. In 1977, one remaining jar of "King Tut's Wheat" was obtained by T. Mack Quinn, another Montana wheat farmer, who with his son Bob, an agricultural scientist and plant biochemist soon perceived the value of this unique grain. They spent the next decade propagating the humped-backed kernels originally selected from the small jar. Their research revealed that wheats of this type originated in the fertile crescent area which runs from Egypt to the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The Quinns coined the trade name "Kamut" an ancient Egyptian word for wheat. Egyptologists claim the root meaning of Kamut is "Soul of the Earth."

The real story is still elusive. Scientists believe that Kamut was still grown in obscurity somewhere in Egypt or surrounding areas, but never in large scale, commerical production.

Kamut is a superior source of vitamins and protein over Greek wheat. People who have wheat allergies are often recommened to use Kamut bread instead. Kamut is also a tougher plant than Greek wheat, and is easier to grow, requiring no pesticides or fertilizers.

The forgotten grain that fed the Egyptian empire is now available to you!

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/...999/v4-182.html

	02-01-2003 11:29									#62
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There was a huge population loss as the Roman empire collapsed, particularly among the urban elite who were the keepers of a lot of technology. The devolution of the political establishment in most places meant that many of the complex trading systems of the Roman era were essentially destroyed, and the results were the starvation of many large urban areas. It is estimated that the population of many parts of Western Europe during the "dark ages" dropped to about 25% of its level during good Roman times, mostly from the effects of warfare directly, as well as the disruption of distribution networks. Of course as has been said previously, these effects were not seen everywhere or in the same degree even where they were experienced.

	02-01-2003 14:47									#63
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The vast majority of the Scottish population is from the same decent as of the English. It is a complete myth put about by the more moronic scots nationalists that The Scottish are some isolated celtic people.

I'm not saying they aren't celtic just that not any more than the English

	02-01-2003 18:05									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Its not a BBC study. It was performed by University College, London.

The article states that the study was funded by the BBC.

	02-01-2003 23:24									#65
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By the time the Normans took England in 1066, they appeared to be speaking French, not Norse or Latin. And yet, they were settled in Normandy for only 100 years. Doesn't this suggest that the Normans of 1066 were largely a mixture of Vikings and Gaulish women?

	03-01-2003 00:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Molly, except for Charlemagne, Europe really achieved nothing of note for hundreds of yeard. Cite one thing that the Europeans did to advance civilization from 500 to 1000.

The Venerable Bede's work on the chronology of Christianity which established the dating system still in use today.

That's one. How many more would you like? Restricted to just Britain, or including mainland Europe as well?

	03-01-2003 00:33									#67
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Lazarus, Anywhere in Europe - but excluding the Church, which continued to carry on Roman culture, and the areas still under Roman control.

	03-01-2003 00:38									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander There was a huge population loss as the Roman empire collapsed, particularly among the urban elite who were the keepers of a lot of technology. The devolution of the political establishment in most places meant that many of the complex trading systems of the Roman era were essentially destroyed, and the results were the starvation of many large urban areas. It is estimated that the population of many parts of Western Europe during the "dark ages" dropped to about 25% of its level during good Roman times, mostly from the effects of warfare directly, as well as the disruption of distribution networks. Of course as has been said previously, these effects were not seen everywhere or in the same degree even where they were experienced.

What happened to Europe as a result of the Barbarian and Arab invasions was very much like what would happen to modern Europe and America if there was an all-out nuclear war followed by rampaging gangs, bent on plunder and rape, that thereafter dominated the countryside for generations.

	03-01-2003 01:36									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Lazarus, Anywhere in Europe - but excluding the Church, which continued to carry on Roman culture, and the areas still under Roman control.

Cute. So with that deft piece of footwork you get to exclude the breakthroughs in Church architecture in the time (which owed nothing to Rome), the ecclesiastical art of the Celtic Church (which owed nothing to Rome- Rome was openly hostile to it), the Cluniac reforms and the wave of intellectual fervour that followed it, the establishment of a consecrated monarchy which ended the turmoil and assassinations and brought political stability unprecedented even under the Romans, the establishment of schools right across Britain and just about all the written work of the time, as the vast majority of surviving wriiten work was by monks, even if was secular writing.

Still, I'll play ball and pick some examples going by your rules.

The Royal Navy (established by King Edgar)

"Beowulf"
The Norse Sagas.
The poetry of Israel the Grammarian
Numerous other heroic poems, if anyone's counting


The establishment of the principle of diminished responsibility in criminal law (established by the statutes of Athelstan limiting the level of punishments applicable to those below the age of 15).

The emergence of the land-owning middle class through the principle of bookland.

Bald's "Leechbook"- medical textbook detailing the correct useage of anaesthesia.

Wansdyke
Offa's ****
The Shire and Hundred administrative system.
The Abingdon Canal at Oxford

Trial by 12 jurors (established in Aethelred's third code of Wantage).

That's off the top of my head, sticking to England, and going by your rules which are, to be blunt, bollocks.

	03-01-2003 02:08									#70
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First scyscreapers in the world were built in Shibam, Yemen (although they were rarely over 10 floors, their height was huge since floors themselves were tall). They are also oldest existing skyscreapers. Gundam Palace Scyscreaper in Sa'ana, Yemen, was the first scyscreaper to surpass 20 floors. It was built in about the time Jesus Christ lived, unfortuantely, it is destroyed now.

	03-01-2003 04:17									#71
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quote: So with that deft piece of footwork you get to exclude the breakthroughs in Church architecture in the time (wich owed nothing to Rome),

But wasn't the church architecture breakthroughs mainly attributed to the Muslims? The towers were certainly inspired by the Muslims. I also thought the supporting arches were also linked to the Roman arches.

	03-01-2003 04:32									#72
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The norse sagas might be in the correct time period, but could hardly be considered mediaevall. At least by swedish nomenclature- our middle ages begin after the end of the late iron age/viking age with the adaption of an early feudal system towards the end of the eleventh century.

	03-01-2003 04:41									#73
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Breakthroughs in church architcture post-date the Dark Ages, Laz. All the really innovative stuff comes after the 10th Century, at least, by which time the Dark Ages were over.

	03-01-2003 05:39									#74
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Lazarus, Thanks. I agree that the advances in criminal law are important and universally recognized today. All literature is important, so I'll give you that as well.

I am not so sure that have a middle-class land ownership system is new to civilization. Ditto any governmental systems. These seem to be modelled on the Roman government, but I might be wrong.

	03-01-2003 07:34									#75
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Can somebody answer me this? This was mostly post-medieval, but I've searched for this answer and have yet to come up with anything.

There was a big trend for hundreds of years, for mostly French and Italian men, to be really effeminate in both manner and dress.

I mean I see the pictures of these guys wearing tights, skirts, high heels, long haired wigs, and lots of makeup.

Where did this awful trend get its start?

	03-01-2003 07:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Can somebody answer me this? This was mostly post-medieval, but I've searched for this answer and have yet to come up with anything. There was a big trend for hundreds of years, for mostly French and Italian men, to be really effeminate in both manner and dress. I mean I see the pictures of these guys wearing tights, skirts, high heels, long haired wigs, and lots of makeup. Where did this awful trend get its start?

Wigs and high heels I think date back to the reign of Louis XIV. During his reign the power and influence of the great nobility were greatly reduced. He made the nobles dependent upon his patronage, the getting of which required them to hang around his court pretty much 24/7. By carefully doling out rewards he made himself the idol of the aristocratic class, who flattered him by copying literally everything about him. High heels were used to give themselves height. As he aged it became fashionable among the younger nobility to make themselves appear older using make up and wigs.

At the start of the middle ages most of Europe was wearing what it had worn during Roman times - robes and leggings. That evolved naturally into tunics which you may be referring to as dresses, and tights.

	03-01-2003 08:03									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander There was a huge population loss as the Roman empire collapsed, particularly among the urban elite who were the keepers of a lot of technology. The devolution of the political establishment in most places meant that many of the complex trading systems of the Roman era were essentially destroyed, and the results were the starvation of many large urban areas. It is estimated that the population of many parts of Western Europe during the "dark ages" dropped to about 25% of its level during good Roman times, mostly from the effects of warfare directly, as well as the disruption of distribution networks. Of course as has been said previously, these effects were not seen everywhere or in the same degree even where they were experienced.

Much of this urban population fled to the countryside, often primarily due to the dramatic fall off in trade as the empire broke up. Without having the means to support themselves they were often forced to put themselves and their families in the service of landowners. Some authors consider this trend as the beginnings of serfdom.

	03-01-2003 08:07									#78
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So would it have been better had the Roman empire survived? I think there was a thread on this, but I never read it.

	03-01-2003 08:14									#79
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quote: Much of this urban population fled to the countryside, often primarily due to the dramatic fall off in trade as the empire broke up. Without having the means to support themselves they were often forced to put themselves and their families in the service of landowners. Some authors consider this trend as the beginnings of serfdom.

Actually, the Latifunda (as they're called) were more a cause than a consequence of the Roman Empire's fall, and it had more to do with Diolecticans "job inheritance" laws and massive tax increases.

	03-01-2003 09:01									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Wigs and high heels I think date back to the reign of Louis XIV. During his reign the power and influence of the great nobility were greatly reduced. He made the nobles dependent upon his patronage, the getting of which required them to hang around his court pretty much 24/7. By carefully doling out rewards he made himself the idol of the aristocratic class, who flattered him by copying literally everything about him. High heels were used to give themselves height. As he aged it became fashionable among the younger nobility to make themselves appear older using make up and wigs. At the start of the middle ages most of Europe was wearing what it had worn during Roman times - robes and leggings. That evolved naturally into tunics which you may be referring to as dresses, and tights.

Thank you Doc, very interesting, especially the part about when he got older.

	03-01-2003 09:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Thank you Doc, very interesting, especially the part about when he got older.

Yes, while "The Sun King" wore dark wigs to make himself appear younger, to flatter him the courtiers adopted white wigs to make themselves appear older.

	03-01-2003 13:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ned By the time the Normans took England in 1066, they appeared to be speaking French, not Norse or Latin. And yet, they were settled in Normandy for only 100 years. Doesn't this suggest that the Normans of 1066 were largely a mixture of Vikings and Gaulish women?

What you do not perhaps know is that William the Conquerer's army was not merely a group of Norman troops, but a mix of mercenaries and adventururers from many countries as well. Thus whether or not French was the lingua franca of the Norman members of the group at home or not, it was the lingua franca of the army that invaded England and became the ruling elite there.

	04-01-2003 00:12									#83
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quote: The article states that the study was funded by the BBC.

can you post your source too? would be nice to compare the two (sources&findings)

	04-01-2003 00:51									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What you do not perhaps know is that William the Conquerer's army was not merely a group of Norman troops, but a mix of mercenaries and adventururers from many countries as well. Thus whether or not French was the lingua franca of the Norman members of the group at home or not, it was the lingua franca of the army that invaded England and became the ruling elite there.

Going by the numbers bearing names beginning with "Fitz", there were a considerable number of illegitimate sons looking for a lucky break.

Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

	04-01-2003 04:08									#85
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quote: Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

	04-01-2003 04:15									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Maybe French is the lingua franca of bastards.

"The French ... believe themselves to be ... the natural heirs to Europe. It has been explained to them that there is a difference between natural heirs and legitimate heirs, but they cannot appreciate subtle distinctions, probably because French has the smallest vocabulary of any language in Europe." - Alan Coren

	04-01-2003 09:43									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus can you post your source too? would be nice to compare the two (sources&findings)

JAMA issues are not available online, and anyway I don't keep them around so I don't have the whole referrence citation.