01-01-2003 03:06									#1
	Medieval Eurocom History: sinkholes, wolves, and gout Increase Your PM Length

Well in America we don't get much schooling on the Dark Ages period in Europe, so recently on the public television I've been watching this show called, "The Western Tradition" and it has to be the most fascinating history show I've seen in a long time. Basically our education in world history goes from the Roman Empire and then makes a big jump to the colonization of the New World, and occasionally a paragraph about Charlemagne is thrown in. Even at the college level it's pretty sparse.

So I've always wondered just exactly how things went after the fall of the Western Empire and it's really fascinating because everything is interconnected and not like a period of chaos where everything was forgotten about.

Couple of random thoughts about this period:

1) You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys. I mean the wealth was traveling from west to east but they kept your asses intact for a few hundred years against all those rampaging Asian horse invaders.

2) I think Turkish chicks are so hot because they have the best mix of genetics, Contantinople was the equivalent of London, New York, and Paris combined in its day so everybody went there seeking fame and glory.

3) The living situation for the average Eurocom was horrible! They died at age 25, and often were freezing and starving to death. Packs of wolves would literally roam into towns (even Paris) and take them over. No wonder the settlers eradicated wolves when they came to the New World.

4) Time was relative and people lived for the moment. There was no standardized system of keeping time.

5) Most childhood nursery rhymes seem to come from the Dark Ages.

-Little Red Riding Hood (the wolves)

-Ring Around the Rosie (I think that they used to carry around Posey flowers in their pockets to either protect them from the Black Plague or to ward off the smell of all the death).

-Evil Trees that had faces (eurocoms would often venture out to the forest never to be seen again and this is because there were sinkholes everywhere that they would disappear into)

6) The Italian City States were the first to employ the skyscrapers en masse, sometimes cities had up to 70 towers that were built by the feudal families as a show of thier power, over the town.

7) Most people were starving to death but the feudal families were so rich that they often overate and suffered from gout. Yuck!

Let's talk about Dark Ages Euroland because it is fascinating. Hit me with your fascinating facts. Sorry if this is all old to you Eurocoms but this is all new to me so it's an amazing rediscovery.

	01-01-2003 03:30									#2
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A tower's not a skyscraper. You should see some of the cities of Hadramaut for examples of medieval "skyscrapers."

	01-01-2003 04:46									#3
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Interesting story. Clovis, the Frank king who conquered Gaul, married a Burgundian princess (Clotilde). She tried to convert him to Catholicism. But he would not listen. But he gave her permission to baptish their babies. So the first one is born and she has it baptized in the winter. At that time it was customary to submerse the infant in the holy water. Well the baby promptly dies.

Clovis is not impressed.

The same thing happens to the second child.

Clovis is even more not impressed.

But, during a battle against a German tribe (Alemanni) he finds himself losing. He then asks Jesus for help. The battle turns in the Franks favor.

Clovis then is baptised and has all of the Franks baptised as well.

Thus, the beginning of the alliance between the Pope and the Franks which had a profound effect on European history.

Last edited by Ned on 01-01-2003 at 05:13

	01-01-2003 05:01									#4
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Damn, that is an ironic story! You would have thought they would have figured out to keep the babies heads above water! So that's who King Clovis is, I always wondered.

I find the Byzantine icons and murals depicting Jesus and the Apostles really amazing, the Roman influence is heavy, as they often are seen brandishing swords or wearing armor, looking like powerful figures.

Alot of the symbolism is also intriguing. What were the bunch of Christians symbols that when put together formed a special symbol? Then there is that thing that Jesus does where he makes a circle with his thumb and his index finger as depicted in the famous mural in the Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. I forget what all these things mean.

This portrayal is far removed from the contemporary portrayal of Jesus, who is seen walking around in robes and sandals, with long hair and generally looking and acting like a stoned hippie.

	01-01-2003 05:22									#5
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Another true story is that of St. Patrick. He was born to a well-to-do Roman family in Britain. He was captured by the Irish who made him a slave. At one point, during his captivity, he went to Gaul on a trading expedition. The year was 407. This was the year the German tribes crossed the frozen Rhine on Jan. 1, and proceeded to sack Gaul.

St. Patrick and his comrades arrived in Gaul that summer, and for two weeks they wandered far and wide. In that entire time they did not meet a single person nor saw a single farm animal.

We need no further deep analysis on what brought on the dark ages.

	01-01-2003 05:32									#6
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quote: You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys.

Well, seeing how the Byzantines tried to invade Italy (and did so) under Justinian, I think the Italians were well within their rights to sell out the Byzantines . I mean, Hell, when they took of Apulia and Naples and the Pope had to get the Normans (under Robert Guiscard) to kick them out, you can see where Italians might not like their Eastern neighbors .

	01-01-2003 06:16									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys. Well, seeing how the Byzantines tried to invade Italy (and did so) under Justinian, I think the Italians were well within their rights to sell out the Byzantines . I mean, Hell, when they took of Apulia and Naples and the Pope had to get the Normans (under Robert Guiscard) to kick them out, you can see where Italians might not like their Eastern neighbors .

Just to set matters straight, the Byzantines were the Roman Empire. They came to Italy in the mid 530's to kick out the Goths when Theodoric's daughter was killed. The Goths had ruled Italy and then Southern Gaul and Spain under Roman authority through Theodoric, the Ostrogoth king and Roman counsel who became king of all the Goths in 507.

Theodoric spent much of his reign developing the art of mosaics for which the "Byzantines" later became so famous.

	01-01-2003 06:45									#8
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Damn I did not know that the Mosaics were from Theodoric. The whole Mosaic art is making a big comeback, and are amazing works of art. I wish I could find the link to the company that does them for major hotels and casinos, there are some hotels that have gone up in the Middle East that have amazing mosaics in them.

Just as the Romans learned the Phalanx from the Greeks but the Greeks learned it from someone else (can't remember who that was though).

	01-01-2003 08:02									#9
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Babies are actually quite good at swimming and holding their breath underwater. Babies can swim even before they can crawl. The Soviets did some experiments with this in the 70s and the films are amazing, watching these babies darting around the tanks. Still, I wouldn't put an infant under water.

	01-01-2003 08:03									#10
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The Justinian plague had more to do with the Dark Ages than the German invasions, I think. It really clobbered the cities of the Roman areas, while the sparsely populated German areas hardly noticed it.

	01-01-2003 08:15									#11
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There is a breed of lifeguard dog that will go out and rescue a human when it's thrown in the water. Even if the dog has never been in the water before in it's life. Anybody know this dog? It's an amazing looking dog, it has sheep like black fur and is pretty big.

I wonder what would have happened if the Romans wouldn't have messed with Persia/Parthia so much. That had to be the longest running superpower feud ever. So many resources wasted and nothing gained. I mean what the hell was so important about Armenia anyway? Silk trade route?

	01-01-2003 08:16									#12
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They were fellow Christians.

	01-01-2003 10:10									#13
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yeah the Philly Public School district curriculum does not include any European history...

	01-01-2003 12:27									#14
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On the actual subject of medieval Eurocom history, Iceland was actually quite an egalitarian, socialist, democratic society (in contrast to the rest of Europe at the time). In the 10th and 11th centuries, it was basically a confederation of independent communes. However, arbriters, who were basically selected voluntarily by individual Icelanders, were able to consolidate power. Also, through inheritance claims, landholders were able to consolidate land. Thus, Iceland eventually turned into a feudal society.

quote: You Italians sold out the Byzantines, way to go guys.

Then they got screwed when the Ottomans renegged on their promises, and took control of Constantinople's trade (previously Venice controlled the trade).

	01-01-2003 12:40									#15
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Ramo:

Actually, Iceland only continued the ancient German tendency for democracy independently and in a climate more suitable for democracy... German tribes were electing their leaders (and dividing up land but especially booty) for centuries... Even the kings of Anglo-Saxon England were elected from prominent families. it was the Roman-style imperial influence that changed that.

yeah aint i a nerd... i got to stop reading...

thanks

	01-01-2003 12:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Then they got screwed when the Ottomans renegged on their promises, and took control of Constantinople's trade (previously Venice controlled the trade).

What goes around comes around huh?

Communist,

Well I would say that's a valid reason. Those poor Armenians have been pawned out since the dawn of time it seems.

Pretty cool info on Iceland there. So, the Icelanders orignated from Germany? I had the false assumption that they were Viking stock. All I know is that some dude with the name Magnus in his name always wins the World's Strongest Man competitions.

	01-01-2003 12:59									#17
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I'm really sorry to interrupt and not to post something more substantial here, but why the hell do you just keep calling us Europeans "Eurocoms" (damn)?

	01-01-2003 12:59									#18
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Earlier Germanic societies (as every other society) only resembled democratic societies as hunter-gatherers. When they settled down as farmers, they became feudal. Iceland was an exception.

It wasn't Roman influence that undermined democracy, but the growth of wealth disparities.

	01-01-2003 13:02									#19
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quote: Pretty cool info on Iceland there. So, the Icelanders orignated from Germany? I had the false assumption that they were Viking stock. All I know is that some dude with the name Magnus in his name always wins the World's Strongest Man competitions.

Scandinavians are a branch of the Germanics (as are Germans, Dutch, etc.). IIRC, Germans actually originated from the geographic region of Scandinavia.

	01-01-2003 13:11									#20
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Okay. So where do the Angles and Saxons fit in that whole mix? (Sorry, I'm ignunt).

	01-01-2003 13:22									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III I'm really sorry to interrupt and not to post something more substantial here, but why the hell do you just keep calling us Europeans "Eurocoms" (damn)?

Because we know better. Commie.

	01-01-2003 13:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Scandinavians are a branch of the Germanics (as are Germans, Dutch, etc.). IIRC, Germans actually originated from the geographic region of Scandinavia.

Germanic is one of the families of the Indo-European language group. Surviving Germanic languages today are English, Dutch, German, Nowegian, Danish, Swedish, Yiddish, Afrikaans. (I probably forgot some). Germanic tribes however did not "originate" in Scandanavia, but seem to have been moving from East to West like most of the rest of the Indo-Europeans.

	01-01-2003 13:28									#23
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Angles are from south of Denmark... Saxons are from the area of Sachsen in germany

	01-01-2003 13:28									#24
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Angles and Saxons were German tribes. Back in the day, they spoke the same language as the Germanic tribes in German, Austria, and the Netherlands. Then of the migrants to the British isles, their language diverged in their relative isolation with Celtic, Latin, and later French influences.

	01-01-2003 13:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Okay. So where do the Angles and Saxons fit in that whole mix? (Sorry, I'm ignunt).

These were a couple of Germanic tribes that invaded Britain (along with the Jutes) in the middle of the first millenium (ie the dark ages). They pushed the Romano-Celtic inhabitants into the worst land over time (Cornwall and Devon and Wales and Scotland), and eventually founded England. Their language was born of necessity, as there were the Angles, Saxons, Jutes as well as Viking invaders such as the Danes. All spoke Germanic languages that had some commonality, and over time a new language was born that was simplified in some pretty useful ways.

	01-01-2003 13:35									#26
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Ooo, three for one!

	01-01-2003 13:49									#27
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quote: Germanic tribes however did not "originate" in Scandanavia, but seem to have been moving from East to West like most of the rest of the Indo-Europeans.

Germanics were IE, yes (technically they originated from some place in Africa ), but IIRC they spread from the region near Denmark into the regions they now occupy. The Germanic language originally diverged in this region.

	01-01-2003 13:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Babies are actually quite good at swimming and holding their breath underwater. Babies can swim even before they can crawl. The Soviets did some experiments with this in the 70s and the films are amazing, watching these babies darting around the tanks. Still, I wouldn't put an infant under water.

Baby swimming is a popular pasttime for young families in Finland. The suitable age for the baby to start swimming is when he/she is about six months old. Later, the reflex necessary for swimming disappears, and has to be learnt again when older – all people never learn it later. It’s not the same thing as swimming that can be learnt by anyone at any age. Mind you: it’s not teaching babies how to swim; they know it by instinct. The infant has a dive reflex that makes him/her close his/her larynx when under water, and that reflex disappears later on.

Sorry about the threadjack. There is a link to the Middle Ages: babies had this dive reflex at that time too.

	01-01-2003 13:57									#29
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Man, so much information! Thanks for the contributions.


Okay, I hope this doesn't sound racist, but in terms of overall strength (intelligence, physical ability, personal characteristics such as determination), I have to say that the Germans seem to have been the most gifted group that the planet has ever seen.

I say this in the same spirit as I always say that I think Turkish chicks are the hottest on the planet.

I am a white guy but am not German by the way. (Scottish and Italian).

Last edited by Ted Striker on 01-01-2003 at 14:02

	01-01-2003 13:59									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Wilderess Baby swimming is a popular pasttime for young families in Finland. The suitable age for the baby to start swimming is when he/she is about six months old. Later, the reflex necessary for swimming disappears, and has to be learnt again when older – all people never learn it later. It’s not the same thing as swimming that can be learnt by anyone at any age. Mind you: it’s not teaching babies how to swim; they know it by instinct. The infant has a dive reflex that makes him/her close his/her larynx when under water, and that reflex disappears later on. Sorry about the threadjack. There is a link to the Middle Ages: babies had this dive reflex at that time too.

I have never heard of this, and it is fascinating. I wonder why they lose the instinct? Does it have something to do with being inside the womb maybe where the environment is different from the world?