29-03-2000 01:20									#1
	Consensus on Cheating? Get a bigger avatar today!

Has anyone made a list of the actions that are possible in the game, but are considered cheating in multiplayer games? I think this would be an extremely handy list to have around, so that everyone could agree to the same rules of conduct before starting a multiplayer game. I'll list all the cheats I've heard of, or have been suggested, with an asterisk next to the ones I personally don't think are cheating.


1) *Social Engineering Quickies: changing SE to get some temporary bonus (such as a production bonus, or Planet bonus, or to get the AI to like you) then changing back, in the same turn, to get the refund.
2) *Colony Pod-Booming: using colony pods from other bases to grow a base beyond its hab complex/hab dome limits.
3) Trading Bases: exchanging bases with the AI, for any reason; the AI will accept very idiotic trades. This is different from *giving* bases to the AI, which I've never heard anyone complain about, and which I think is fair.
4) Fleecing: forcing a Submissively Pacted faction to give you more money than they actually have, by selling tech to them and pushing their energy reserves into the negative.
5) Hand-Offs: taking advantage of the infinite-range missile bug by giving your missiles to an AI faction and having them bomb your enemies.
6) Infinite Drops: using the right-click menu to move a drop-pod-equipped unit more than once in a turn.
7) Non-Base Drops: using the right-click menu to make drops that start from outside bases or airbases.
8) Silent Probing: in hotseat, probing a pacted or treatied human faction without informing them you've done so. A bug gives the notification of probe activity to the probER instead of the probEE, so they won't know it happened unless you tell them.
9) Recalling: cancelling a Pact with another faction for the sole purpose of bringing home units. (I would have put a half-asterisk in front of this one, if I could have, because I think this is a cheat only if you do it with a human player, with whom you could be colluding. If you do it with the AI, it may be very hard to re-make the Pact, so you're not getting something for nothing.)
10) *Telepathy: communicating with other human factions before you've actually met them.
11) *Workshop Upgrades: upgrading units en masse from the workshop screen, so that they can move and get upgraded in the same turn.
12) Super-Crawlers: upgrading a Supply Crawler so much that it's really expensive, and can be traded in for as many minerals as a full Secret Project; if done correctly, you can buy a secret project at 1/4 the cost.
13) Evicting: in hotseat, right-clicking on a treatied human faction in the comm menu, and choosing "demand withdrawal." Doing this lets the computer, not your opponent, decide whether to comply (90% of the time, the computer withdraws).
14) Rigging Votes: clicking on another human player's portrait during a vote, and offering them a bribe, will cause the acceptance of the bribe (and therefore their vote) to be decided by the AI, not the human player. Also, sometimes you will get an offer of bribery from another human player during the council; this offer is coming from the AI and not the human player.
15) *Suicide for Profit: disbanding your only colony pod in order to get free stuff when your faction is re-started; most factions get a free terraformer out of this, but Morgan also gets an extra 100 energy each time he does it.
16) Early Rovers: making rovers before you've gotten rover tech, by using the workshop to modify the rover chassis that comes on a probe team.
17) *Reverse Engineering: making new unit designs from captured units, and putting their components, which you don't actually have the tech for, onto other units.
18) *Double Stockpiling: taking advantage of the extra energy given to a player whenever the queue automatically switches to "Stockpile Energy."
19) *Double Terraforming: giving formers terraforming commands when their flags are already greyed out.
20) Roads Through Fungus: using the auto-build-road command to make a former build roads over fungus, if done before discovery of Centauri Empathy (the tech that allows this).

Please post any I've left out.

(I'm going to update this message as people suggest new cheats, to keep the list in once piece. This means it may look like people suggested things that were already on the list, which isn't the case.)


[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited November 12, 2000).]

	29-03-2000 01:41									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

I cannot think of anything else right now, but I really cannot see how you could not consider 1) a cheat. Build a crawler under Planned/Wealth then switch to Power and use it to hurry an SP for an instant 12 free minerals appearing out of nowhere (more if you make non-basic crawlers?)? That has to be one of the most blatant cheats I have ever seen.

As for 2), well, it renders Habitation Domes and Morgan's population limit irrelevant. I suspect there is a reason they made the Domes very late-game. Plus, if this is intentional, they should have let us know; if it is not, you should not exploit it. But I know the opinions are divided on this one...
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited March 28, 2000).]

	29-03-2000 03:52									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

I think the cost of the second action is more a deterrent - will the single added pop point in that base, be worth more than the mineral cost and temporary pop loss elsewhere? To me, almost never. Even if it is funky, the cost to implement it should disqualify it as a cheat - it's not a something for nothing.

	29-03-2000 09:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

As far as using Social Engineering quickies, I thought a long time before putting that asterisk there, and I'm not really sure why I did, now. You're right, it does seem like a lbatant cheat. The game should at least make one have to have one's SE choices in effect for a full turn before they do anything. I think I was thinking that there's no way to really keep other players from doing this, or even know if they've done it, so you can't really enforce a "no quickies" rule. But that doesn't mean it's not a cheat, I guess. You just have to hope your opponents are honest.

I'm on the side that thinks that Limitless Pod-Booming isn't "something for nothing". Also, I don't think there's a "real" justification for preventing it. Past a certain point, a city needs to put some money into infrastructure to allow it to keep growing, that makes sense. It's as if, without a Hab Complex or Dome, all nutrient production is lost to inefficiency. That I can buy. But relocating population isn't the same as growth. It's a bunch of people coming from somewhere else. What is the explanation for why they can't set up shop in another city? Immigrants to America have lived five-to-a-room or worse; when people want to move somewhere, they do, regardless of the available infrastructure. I can't think of a sensible reason not to allow it.

But, back to the thread's topic: any other cheats that people frown on in Multiplayer? Or even, if not out-and-out cheats, slightly scummy activities?

	29-03-2000 10:03									#5
	Got spare money?

Infinite right click dropping between cities. Supposed to be stopped in Smax2 patch but it still seems to work erratically for me.

As for SE the AI can get incredibly annoying regarding SE choices, and it gets to the point where it is impossible to have friends in transcend games. I do this frequently, and in almost all MP games the AI is set to permanent v'detta anyways.

Pod booming, never done it don't see the purpose. It is just not worth it for me. The gains are so temporary that it isn't really a cheat since all the people starve once you stop booming, and you lose a huge investment.

And exploiting the submissive? Come on what else are they going to do. Once an artificial idiot goes into a submissive pact it COMPLETELY stops expanding, maybe 2 more bases if you are lucky. It stops developing infrastructure and builds nothing but military units until it's support dries up all minerals. After the initial techs and cash you gain from conquering a comp there are no benefits, selling techs is a way of actually gaining from them. I have no clue what it does to their base facilities once they are at -300 energy though.
[This message has been edited by Enigma (edited March 29, 2000).]

	29-03-2000 11:56									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Pod-booming isn't that ineffective. After fusion, when you pop-boom up to the limits of Hab Complexes, you can buid one CP per city without any population loss. OK, that's only one per city, but still, it's pod-booming.

Alternatively, yoou could build, say 5 CPs per base, wait till goes up to the limit, and then add them to the pop. Again, extra pop out of the void.

LoD

	29-03-2000 19:42									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What is infinite right click dropping between cities?

	29-03-2000 20:33									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You select a drop unit, then right click on a city and select make airdrop/orb insert here. The unit will end up in that city with 0% damage and full moves. Then right click on the next city, select make airdrop ad nauseum. This works erratically for me since the latest patch but it still works most of the time.

You can use this to give units with regular drop pods (before orb insertions) effectively infinite range.

	30-03-2000 10:31									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think exploiting the submissive is a cheat because it doesn't seem like something the programmers intended. You can't offer money to the AI that you don't have; why can they offer you money that they don't have? It seems like an oversight rather than a feature, so I call it a cheat. It's true that submissive factions aren't good for much, though. Others have claimed that forcing a faction into negative energy will make them lose base facilities, though I haven't checked that myself. I used to always exploit the hell out of my submissive friends, but since I've decided that is cheating, I've noticed the submissors doing a little better than they used to, though just a little.

I'm going to go edit my original post and add the right-clicking thing.
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited March 29, 2000).]

	31-03-2000 07:20									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The reason we play computer games, and not board games or other types of games, it that there are no arguments on the rules. If the computer allows it, it's not cheating.

That's my opinion on all the so called "cheats."

Of course, open up the Scenario Editor or replay a game from a previous Save, and I'd call you a cheater.

	31-03-2000 15:11									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

kaz: But the computer allows you to reload or use the SE.

You're contradicting your own arguments .

LoD

	31-03-2000 21:43									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Referring to something as a cheat or not a cheat is really dodging the central issue. We each of us play the game for different reasons. Some play just for fun, and if part of the definition of that fun (at least in SP) is to use a questionable tactic, then more power to them.

I play the game to push my own limits, and therefor restrict myself from using ANYTHING that could give me an undue advantage over my opponents, AI or otherwise. This includes things like pod-booming, energy raping, and SE switching, but also loopholes in the combat rules like ZOC-blocking a choke point with air units infinitely to tie up the AI land forces trying to get through....I don't do that stuff because it makes the game easy, and easy is not what I'm generally looking for (and in fact, unless I'm doing demo work or playing in MP where I KNOW that others will be doing it), I seldom use Pop-Booms anymore for that reason....too easy to walk away with the game....

Yeah, that makes the game a lot harder, but for me, that's the point....

-=Vel=-

	01-04-2000 10:17									#13
	Remove this text

A "cheat" is somehting like iddqd. And idkfa. And dnkroz. Type in cheats. Anything else is a game fault and need be exploited.

	01-04-2000 01:49									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

LoD,

Open the Scenario Editor, and the GAME ITSELF CALLS YO A CHEATER!

As for going back to an old Save, that's one thing that cannot be changed and still make SMAC a playable game. My sense of fair play makes that an exception to my "if the game allows" philosophy.

	01-04-2000 04:19									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ka, Vel, and EternalSpark: with all due respect, you're missing the point. I'm talking about multi-player cheats. What is and isn't cheating in single-player is up to each player individually.

For instance, Kaz, the game will allow you to make infinte airdrops. Whether you use this ability or not in single-player is up to you. However, the impression I've gotten from other PBEMers is that, if you take advantage of this bug in multiplayer, you will anger your fellow teammaters. They will accuse you of cheating.

My main goal here is to have a standard list of questionable actions, so that prospective PBEMers can agree beforehand on what's legal. That way, no one gets upset late in the game about something that wasn't discussed up front. To that end, I'm less interested in arguing about the validity of any given action than I am in collecting all the actions that there's dispute about.

Quoth Kaz: "If the computer allows it, it's not cheating." That's not exactly true: if the computer allows it and your human opponents don't, it's cheating.

	01-04-2000 05:12									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I got your point well and clear. If I was in Doom MP and I typed iddqd and it worked, ya know what? I'm gonna do it.

The ends justify thine means.

	01-04-2000 11:26									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

EternalSpark: Have you ever actually read "The Prince"? Because if you were, you'd know that this quote is not complete.


LoD

	01-04-2000 13:42									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

EternalSpark: would you do that even if you'd agreed beforehand not to? Or would you just never make such an agreement?

	01-04-2000 15:12									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I play a lot of Quake and used to play Doom. If anyone ever played multiplayer with the god code on like you are suggesting, EternalSpark, I would never play with them again. Only an idiot would consider playing that way fun. It takes away any possible notion that you were playing a game of skill and turns it into a moronfest.

The ends may justify the means, but what are the ends in this case. The ends are a game that no longer requires any skill and is not fun because someone is blatantly cheating.

Although there is no god code in SMAC, there are obviously cheats. Using these, IMO, is the same as using idkfa or iddqd in doom. It shows that whoever using them has no skill and uses the cheats to gain an advantage and attempt to make up for their impotence.

Anyway, that's just my opinion on cheats.

	01-04-2000 20:31									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

If I were involved in a MP game and one of the players knowingly took advantage of an obviouse bug in the game (i.e. infinite airdrops) I would be very inclined not to continue playing with them. Frankly I'm rather surprised that their are people argueing that these practices are fair and okay. I'm going to cheat because the game allows me too is a VERY immature attitude. It is something I would expect to hear from a 10 year old.
[This message has been edited by Q_tip1976 (edited April 01, 2000).]

	03-04-2000 00:29									#22
	Remove this text

Well, Spark, that's the whole point. What are the things that people should agree about before starting to game together? I find it hard to believe that we can only come up with six items of contention, but I guess it's possible.

	03-04-2000 02:03									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here's a couple multiplayer cheats that are easy to expoit with no one knowing about it, but should definately not be allowed. They both are Hotseat cheats.

#1 - If you have a treaty with another human and choose the demand withdrawal option by right clicking the com menu, the computer, not the player chooses whether or not to comply. Since it isn't possible to declare vendetta without actually attacking in Hotseat play, this basically means that treatied players can never enter each others territories because the computer withdraws for you 90% of the time.

#2 - This one is way worse. In hotseat if you probe another human you are pacted or treatied with they are supposed to be given the option of allowing the transgression or declaring vendetta. Instead of this option popping up on the turn of the player who just got probed, it pops up immediately after the probe action allowing the player who did it to have the poor fool he's probing do nothing. Worse, the other guy never gets a notice of what happened at all.

	03-04-2000 02:13									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Talkin' about number 2 Mike just said... if its a probe team operation, ain't it realistic to have the enemy not know anything happened? I woudn't do this cheat, though... I don't think... of course, this is partly good, because I could be pacted with nation A, and we're both fighting Faction B... and we make a plan to use probes to deal damage to Faction B... one of the ways we can increase our probe skill is by sending it to our Pact bro/sis, stealing a tech or something (both could do it from each other) which increase our morale of our probes.

Just thinkin'.

	03-04-2000 07:05									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Busta, thanks mightily for helping with the list. I'll add your first item to the list, but I'm not sure what to say about #2. #2 is quite a problem. I'm not sure whether or not I should add it to the list, because I can't think of anything you can do about it. All the other items on the list can be avoided if players agree on it beforehand. But what are people going to do, swear not to probe each other? That's no fun. Hm. Maybe they'll have to swear to notify their victims that they've probed them? I guess I really should put it on the list, but it sure beats me how to address it fairly.

I'm sure this must have come up already in some PBEM games--what are the agreements people have come to on it? BustaMike?
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited April 02, 2000).]

	03-04-2000 14:40									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It hasn't actually come up in PBEM games yet, oddly enough. I guess I haven't played that many yet. The issue first came up when I was playing a hotseat game with my friends over at their apartment. There's only 1 computer over there so hotseat it is. The only agreement that we've come up with so far is that as soon as the victim finds out it's happening (maybe he'll notice the money being sucked away from him by the Angels) or we just decide to end it we'll stop doing it completely and give the other person warning when a probe action is going to occur. Right now it's just too funny and it's not a serious game so we're letting it slide.

Realistically speaking, this is one of the most vicious bugs I've ever seen and I'm really not sure what to do about it either. Maybe play with a direct connection instead of PBEM is the only answer... but then we get into the messed up combat and time problems and that's no good either.

I see only two solutions, and both are bad.

1. Wait for revision 3 if it ever shows up and hope they fix this. (Ha Ha Ha, revision 3)

2. Agree to warn of a probe team action before hand. There is no way to enforce this because no one would know the difference so this is bad too.

That's about all I can come up with.

	03-04-2000 16:59									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Most PBEM rules state that you are required to choose "Declare Vendetta" unless the other player has given you prior permission not to do so.

EternalSpark - no, it isn't realistic to not notify the other player. The "vendetta - let off" menu only pops up when your probe team is "detected" pulling off their dirty deed. If you successfully get away without being detected, or successfully blame another faction, the menu doesn't pop up.

	04-04-2000 02:02									#28
	Tired of ads?

Chris: You say "Most PBEM rules state..." where are these PBEM rules?

My opinion on the withdraw troops thing, is that the demand should be made over e-mail, and if the other player is willing to withdraw their troops, then and only then may the right-click menu be used.

As for probing, I'd be for an honor system. Players should agree to notify each other when they probe friendly human factions.

	05-04-2000 12:03									#29
	Got spare money?

I learned of two other cheats, which I'm adding to the list. They'll be #9 and #10:


9) Recalling: cancelling a Pact with another faction for the sole purpose of bringing home units in their territory. (I would have put a half-asterisk in front of this one, if I could have, because I think this is a cheat only if you do it with a human player, with whom you could be colluding. If you do it with the AI, it may be very hard to re-make the Pact, so you're not getting something for nothing.)
10) *Telepathy: communicating with other human factions before you've actually met them.

[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited April 05, 2000).]