01-01-2003 12:16									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Edan A number of us did offer advice and I repeatedly pointed oput that those that were charged with trivial offenses were released soon afterwards once the details could be verified. I see nothing wrong in not being suprised that people that have commited illegal acts (no matter how sympathetic the situation may be) should have to face the consequences of those actions. Should detainees whos details have been verified and whos transgressions are trivial be released? Yes, IMHO, but not before theose details are verified.

If they have to face the music, then so be it. But we shouldn't be so quick to criticize, or offering a lesson after lesson in the fine points of US of immigration law when we could be offering them advice on what to do. If you, in particular, Edan, have tried to be helpful where others have not, then I thank you.

	01-01-2003 12:16									#92
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quote: Originally posted by cia No, it's the fact that people (gasp) use situations like this to try and force compassion on them, i.e. "Your honor, my wife is pregnant, you can;t break the family up" etc. Cold, maybe. Calculated on the immigrant's part, maybe. Good way to try and screw the system, yes.

Again, you don't KNOW his intentions.

Innocent before proven guilty, heard of it?

	01-01-2003 12:18									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Then shouldn't he be detained until the facts and circumstances are known?

Depends on what your definition of "detainment" is. If it's done in the way the whole LA fiasco went down, then hell no.

	01-01-2003 12:19									#94
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Rubbish, whether or not you agree with her analogy is moot, she deserves to be treated with basic human decency given the most serious nature of her situation. Imagine if your mom was from Persia Shi, and due to various circumstances she was on the verge of being deported. How would you feel if you came on here, looking for a helping hand and found only fierce hostility? I find it absurd that so many are obsessed with enforcing the letter of US law, that they completely ignore the human element of a husband and wife being driven apart. It is that seperation from basic human compassion that has gotten the US in the mess that it's in.

Remind me not to recommend you for a postition in the INS. The fact is that almost every would be immigrant to this country has a story more compelling than the one we have heard today. If you were in charge there would in effect be no law at all as everyone would be excepted. People who come on Apolyton and complain about things that were the result of their own actions and / or inactions, and then insult everyone of their countrymen by calling them de facto Nazis (or Nazi appeasers at least) deserve little sympathy IMO, though feel free to gush away if you like.

	01-01-2003 12:22									#95
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Yeah, but this is her husband. To me he is one of the family now, and should be treated as such. HOWEVER, if after he goes through the normal INS enquiry, and they can't prove that they are indeed a legitamite couple, then to hell with him.

If this were some dude just straggling into the country, well then that's a different story.

	01-01-2003 12:22									#96
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Look, **** happens to everyone, but if I was told I couldn't live here anymore unless I did a certain action, I'd do it or have a nice spot somewhere else on Earth to hang out at. It would be my number 1 priority.

	01-01-2003 12:24									#97
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Again, the way the whole LA thing went down, *I* would be worried about what was going to happen. She has every reason to be hesitant. The INS double-crossed the people it asked to see.

	01-01-2003 12:24									#98
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Rubbish, whether or not you agree with her analogy is moot, she deserves to be treated with basic human decency given the most serious nature of her situation. Imagine if your mom was from Persia Shi, and due to various circumstances she was on the verge of being deported. How would you feel if you came on here, looking for a helping hand and found only fierce hostility? I find it absurd that so many are obsessed with enforcing the letter of US law, that they completely ignore the human element of a husband and wife being driven apart. It is that seperation from basic human compassion that has gotten the US in the mess that it's in.

The situation comes from her husband is in the country illegaly. It's a sad situation she is in, yes. But a situation that she is in from failure to follow the law. And more sympathy would have been in order if she had just asked for advice or talked about her situation, rather then geting mad this country and comparing to Nazi Germany. That was incredibly insensitive and offensive and so she deserves what she gets.

	01-01-2003 12:26									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Depends on what your definition of "detainment" is. If it's done in the way the whole LA fiasco went down, then hell no.

I'm not sure exactly what was so horrible about that "detainment", especially as they were released within a few days. Aparently, though, a major cause for it, though, was that all a lot of people who registered all waited for the last day and couldn't all be interviewed in that day - and the INS should have been better prepared for that possibility.

	01-01-2003 12:31									#100
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider If you, in particular, Edan, have tried to be helpful where others have not, then I thank you.

I'd be a little more happy if it was tandeetaylor was more appretiative, and concentrate on discussing the options of her sitution rather than making inflamatory analogies and largely dismissing or ignoring the advice.

	01-01-2003 12:34									#101
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You are correct in that most of the people were released, but there are still a few people left that nobody has heard from.

I mean the ones that are left over were basically rounded up and nobody has heard from them since. The American Iranian community is calling it the, "Black Hole."

Now if it turns out these people who are missing are indeed some kind of serious criminals, that changes things, but at the very least they should be allowed outside contact and/or representation. And not treated like Al Queda. I mean they went there voluntarily, how bad of people could they have been?

	01-01-2003 12:36									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I'd be a little more happy if it was tandeetaylor was more appretiative, and concentrate on discussing the options of her sitution rather than making inflamatory analogies and largely dismissing or ignoring the advice.

I'd have to agree, I know she is in a panic mode but she should keep her options open. Maybe she is looking for some kind of magic bullet. At the very least she needs to hook up with a lawyer.

	01-01-2003 12:36									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Remind me not to recommend you for a postition in the INS. The fact is that almost every would be immigrant to this country has a story more compelling than the one we have heard today. If you were in charge there would in effect be no law at all as everyone would be excepted. People who come on Apolyton and complain about things that were the result of their own actions and / or inactions, and then insult everyone of their countrymen by calling them de facto Nazis (or Nazi appeasers at least) deserve little sympathy IMO, though feel free to gush away if you like.

What could more compelling than losing your husband for pete's sake? If you were to lose your wife/girlfriend/mom, I'm sure that you would be more than happy that a "gusher" such as myself were an INS agent.
In any event, everyone makes mistakes. You left out "one" on "everyone" in your second sentence. I'm sure perhaps forgetting to fill out a certain form now seems like a comparable mistake for this couple. So the question is whether we are quick to criticize or offer a helping hand when these errors occur. Whether you support the recent actions of the INS or not is moot, things are now out of our hands in that regard. We can, however, offer this poor lady the most basic of human sympathy and compassion. I'm surprised that so few agree with me, but alas, my Apolyton friends such as Sikander are products of a decadent American culture. Thus, perhaps they know nothing more than the cold, hard logic of efficency that America preaches, and therefore their lack of compassion can't really be entirely held against them. Whatever is the case, I promise you this, such a lack of compassion and an inability to see beyond one's own station in life is at the very core of America's problems and will continue to be from here on out. All I can offer those who criticize the original poster is bit of advice: try to offer the tiniest ammount of compassion in the future for other humans, and perhaps even put yourself in their shoes. I guarantee that your life will be far more rewarding.

	01-01-2003 12:42									#104
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IIRC, the twenty or so that weren't released in the first several days had turned up on police databanks - ie, they were conneced to other crimes.

	01-01-2003 12:42									#105
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This is the account from the San Francisco Chronicle:

quote: Shahin Hajizadeh, who was arrested on Monday and held for two days, disagreed. Hajizadeh, a 22-year-old pre-med student in Los Angeles, was born in Iran and then lived in Germany for 10 years. In an interview Friday, he said he came to the United States three years ago to live with his father, an American citizen. He said he applied years ago for permanent resident status, has a valid work permit and paid taxes on his job in a hospital. He was recently told, he said, that his application for permanent residence would soon go through. He said he was shocked when he showed up on Monday for the registration only to be told he was here illegally and was arrested. But it got worse, he said, when he was sent to the basement of the Federal Building downtown and held in a room of about 400 square feet with roughly 120 people. There was no place to sit, one bathroom, no water and not enough food for everyone, he said. He added that he had to sleep on the concrete floor without a blanket, and later was transported in a packed van for several hours to a cell in the desert town of Lancaster (Los Angeles County). Arriving there at 3:30 a.m. Wednesday, he said, he was strip-searched, and then forced to wait in a cold room. By the time he and about a dozen others had been processed, they were able to sleep for only about an hour before being awakened for the long drive back to downtown Los Angeles. When he rose only slowly because of his exhaustion, he said, he was kicked in the ribs by an angry guard. He was finally released late Wednesday.

quote: He may have been lucky compared to Afshin Sharifi, a 35-year-old computer engineer from Orange County. According to his sister Afshan, he was arrested unexpectedly on Thursday, Dec. 12, when he went in to register. She said they had lived in the United States for 13 years and had applied properly for permanent status. They received their approvals a year ago, she said, and were awaiting notification that their permanent visas had been completed. But her brother was arrested and held throughout the week, then told he could be released on $15,000 bail, she said. Even after she showed up with the bail money, Afshan Sharifi said, immigration officials said they had misplaced her brother's paperwork and that he would remain jailed through the weekend. "This is so shocking because his status is legal," she said.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...21/MN150184.DTL

	01-01-2003 12:43									#106
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Sorry to hear that tandee. Is it possible for your husband to get a visa to stay here (through work, school, etc.)?

	01-01-2003 12:45									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Edan IIRC, the twenty or so that weren't released in the first several days had turned up on police databanks - ie, they were conneced to other crimes.

If the orignal unaccounted for have had their families notified of their wherabouts, then I stand corrected.

But, if they are criminals then they should be treated as such. However even criminals get due process.

But many of the innocents were initially treated as criminals.

	01-01-2003 12:50									#108
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quote: Remind me not to recommend you for a postition in the INS. The fact is that almost every would be immigrant to this country has a story more compelling than the one we have heard today. If you were in charge there would in effect be no law at all as everyone would be excepted. People who come on Apolyton and complain about things that were the result of their own actions and / or inactions, and then insult everyone of their countrymen by calling them de facto Nazis (or Nazi appeasers at least) deserve little sympathy IMO, though feel free to gush away if you like.

Immigration barriers, not only being hurdles to economic development in both developed and undeveloped countries, are inhuman examples of oppression and tyranny. They are certainly authoritarian in the extreme.

	01-01-2003 12:53									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker This is the account from the San Francisco Chronicle:

If this is accurate, and he feels his rights were violated (and yes, illegal immigrants do have some rights), then he (and the others) should consider suing. I'm sure plenty of lawyers would be interested in doing the case pro-bono.

And while illegal immigrants do get due process, the government can, quite legally, detain them for an extended (something like 6 months, IIRC) period of time - even before 9/11.

	01-01-2003 12:55									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker But many of the innocents were initially treated as criminals.

Nonesense. They were illegal immigrants. Hence, none of them were innocent, although most had committed trivial illegal acts.

	01-01-2003 12:57									#111
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WRONG

Did you even read those excerpts? Unless those people are lying, their status was LEGAL, or they had taken the steps necessary to be here legally.

quote: She said they had lived in the United States for 13 years and had applied properly for permanent status. They received their approvals a year ago, she said, and were awaiting notification that their permanent visas had been completed.

This is why this whole lumping of people into being "illegal" into some whole category as some sort of felons is wrong, as clearly there can be many technical snafus or communication slips along the way.

My immigrant friends all say it takes an extraordinary long time to get citizenship, let alone a green card.

	01-01-2003 13:01									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker WRONG Did you even read those excerpts. Unless those people are lying, their status was LEGAL, or they had taken the steps necessary to be here legally.

According to the INS, all of those arrested had at least visa violations - given that she did not recieve her visa, it seems that that is a distinct possibility, even if she is telling the truth. It may have been a snafu on the part of the INS (I don't know and you don't know), but she was still considered an illegal immigrant and had to be detained until interviews could be conducted and details verified.

And taken steps to be here legally implies that one is currently illegal.

	01-01-2003 13:05									#113
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quote: And while illegal immigrants do get due process, the government can, quite legally, detain them for an extended (something like 6 months, IIRC) period of time - even before 9/11.

Actually, immigrants can be detained indefinitely currently. And prior to 9/11, immigrants could only be legally detained for a very limited time (something like 10 days). Certainly not 6 months.

	01-01-2003 13:07									#114
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I'll bring back up my analogy from before. If someone had to go to the police department to report a crime, would it be ok to steal a car to get there?

Now, there are certain circumstances where it may be ok to steal the car - you're being chased by a psycho killer in a hockey mask, or you know the owner of the car and know that they wouldn't mind you "borrowing" the car. However, either way, if the police find you in a stolen vehicle, they will arrest you. Charges may be dropped later, if the circumstances warrented the stealing of a car, but that doesn't mean they won't arrest you until they have verified that.

	01-01-2003 13:08									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Edan And taken steps to be here legally implies that one is currently illegal.

No it doesn't. You can be here on a temporary visa and be applying for a permanent green card. That's the thing, there aren't just two states, "legal," and "illegal."

No we don't know the whole truth but I still think polarizing everyone into two distinct groups as being either "illegal" or "legal" is flawed. It's such a one-dimensional way of looking at the situation that completely ignores the intentions of the immigrants.

	01-01-2003 13:24									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker It's such a one-dimensional way of looking at the situation that completely ignores the intentions of the immigrants.

Intentions can only be known after an interview.

	01-01-2003 13:35									#117
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quote: And prior to 9/11, immigrants could only be legally detained for a very limited time (something like 10 days). Certainly not 6 months.

Best I could find was that, before 9/11, after an illegal immigrant is found to be deportable, the government can detain him 3 months before deporting him, which might have led to my confusion.

	01-01-2003 13:44									#118
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quote: Now, look at David Floyd or Sava, for instance. You tell me that putting them in Somalia to live a while wouldn't do a butt-load of good ?

Why don't you just go **** yourself? better yet, why not drive your dumbass down to austin where i'll whip your ass out to somalia.

you think that's ****ing funny? **** yourself.

	01-01-2003 13:48									#119
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why don't you just go **** yourself? better yet, why not drive your dumbass down to austin where i'll whip your ass out to somalia. you think that's ****ing funny? **** yourself.

Get 'em in the chokehold Floyd!!!

Go for the leg lock!!!

	01-01-2003 13:51									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Intentions can only be known after an interview.

Sure, so in the meantime send them to prison on $15,000 bail. Sounds good to me.

Intentions can also be known by documentation in combination with an interview, and interviews with witnesses, etc.