01-01-2003 10:57									#1
	Discussion: assimilation of workers into cities Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The recent worker assimilation bill has just passed on the tip of a vote. Some consider putting up a counter bill because some people may have changed their minds.
IMHO we're not doing it the right way. Instead of putting rather vague statements like "First integrate these workers, then integrate these workers" without addressing questions such as when, how and how many, we need to discuss and come up with a complete plan, or rather, plans, and then put them up on a poll.
I suggest that we come up with a "multithreaded" plan that will address the whole issue of worker assimilation. The plan should be something along these lines:
A-1: We begin integrating workers immediately.
A-2: We begin inetgrating workers after certain conditions are met.
B-1: We integrate domestic workers first.
B-2: We integrate slaves first.
C-1: We integrate workers into cities that have not run out of tiles to be worked.
C-2: We integrate workers into all cities, even those that have no further tiles to work (thus creating specialists).
Etc'.
Then, we post a multi-choice poll with the following options:
[ ] I approve of A-1.
[ ] I approve of A-2.
[ ] I approve of neither.
[ ] I approve of B-1.
[ ] I approve of B-2.
[ ] I approve of neither.
And so on.

What do you think?

	01-01-2003 19:46									#2
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Yes, the current sqaubbling about vague groups will result in no progress in the near future. We need concrete options. Of course, I'll still vote for the plan emancipating the slaves first.

Last edited by Thud on 01-01-2003 at 20:35

	01-01-2003 20:48									#3
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I think we SHOULD integrate workers, but we should integrate natives FIRST.

	01-01-2003 21:22									#4
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Why are we still talking about this subject? The Senate has spoken, and the bill is supportive of A1, B1, and C1.

So could we please start executing instead of bsing?

	02-01-2003 21:07									#5
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Actually the bill only prohibits B2. (But not by a veto-proof margin.)

The Doestic Ministry retains the ability to decide upon A1 & A2 as they see fit and in addition decide upon C1 & C2 as they see fit.

Last edited by joncnunn on 02-01-2003 at 21:20

	02-01-2003 21:21									#6
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I too agree that the elected officials should have full authority to decide upon these matters, and any other matters that fall under their jurisdiction and weren't decided by the senate.

	02-01-2003 21:30									#7
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By law they have the authority to. What you think doesn't matter j/k

	02-01-2003 21:51									#8
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I know. I meant to stress that matters over which there is no concensus, or even a clear majority to any of the sides in the argument, should be decided by the elected official, not by a bill that passed over the tip of a vote or two.

	02-01-2003 21:57									#9
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Oh, you meant they can ignore the bill just passed? They cannot.

	02-01-2003 22:20									#10
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Of course not. I was referring to future cases. I thought that was obvious enough not to mention.

	02-01-2003 22:21									#11
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Oh ok.

	03-01-2003 01:11									#12
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I must say I highly dislike the bill which passed by a one vote majority, because it lacks flexibility dearly : according to this bill, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to me to integrate any slave until all nationals are integrated, up to the very last one (please note the only worker integration I've done so far, in Howitzerville and Heroes' Summit, were nationals despite my anti-slavery posture, and before the bill was valid : flexibility is something you need).

Shiber : for starting an interesting and rational discussion, as always. If I have time, I will update the "worker todo list", to show how many workers we still need, and how much time we need them. Hopefully, it'll clarify things a bit (sadly, I don't have much time, I have a big work to do for 7th January).

My stance on the issue is :

- integrate workers only in cities where there are still tiles to be used. Basically, a worker turned into a specialist is a worker wasted. If I calculated my PW correctly, most cities should not have more than 20 pop (however, I did not integrate tile overlap when doing my orders, so I'll keep a worker reserve to change improvements if needed).

- integrate workers when all PW is done, including those in former German territory. It is possible to marginally integrate workers before all PW is done, if enough other workers are mobilized already (like, if we only need 75 more workers of our staff)

- I say integrate slaves first, and I lenghtly explained the rationale behin it in this thread. Basically, we have huge needs in population, that our workers can't satisfy. Hence, it is better to have 2 integrated slaves for one national worker, rather than one integrated national for 2 slave workers (much more money and shields are brought this way).
However, I am not dogmatic here. As I said, the only 2 worker integrations I have ordered so far were about nationals, because of the hogh risk of culture flipping so near of Berlin. Integrating slaves first should be a trend, not a rock-hard decision to follow blindly. That's precisely why the bill is absolutely counter productive, because this flexibility is lost (the bill would be only "bad" if it wasn't so rigid).

Any comments ?

	03-01-2003 02:53									#13
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Spiffor: While you may be correct that it is better to integrate slaves first and that the bill is bad, it is illegal for you to ignore that bill.

	03-01-2003 03:45									#14
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Skywalker : I know this, and I will comply to the bill to the letter, until it becomes obsolete (I trust there will be a reaction).

	03-01-2003 11:19									#15
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I think we SHOULD integrate workers, but we should integrate natives FIRST.

hi ,

and who is going to do the jobs then , .........




our payed economical responsable workers , they should stay outside for now

have a nice day

	04-01-2003 07:52									#16
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As for B2, if we get to a point of doing it, we should never integrate aztec, american or any other extinct civ captives. They dont hurt attitude toward any civ and are free.

	04-01-2003 11:50									#17
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Calc : I precisely intend to integrate French, American, or workers from other extinct civs first (I mean, first when I'll begin to integrate slaves)
We shouldn't fear any unhappiness because we'"re at war with their country, and it is almost safe to say they won't cause any cultural reversion problem. Unhappiness and cultural reversion are my priorities, much more than the stance of our neighbours towards us ; I think slaves have a very little effect on the hate foreign nations have towards us.

	04-01-2003 21:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Calc : I precisely intend to integrate French, American, or workers from other extinct civs first (I mean, first when I'll begin to integrate slaves) We shouldn't fear any unhappiness because we'"re at war with their country, and it is almost safe to say they won't cause any cultural reversion problem. Unhappiness and cultural reversion are my priorities, much more than the stance of our neighbours towards us ; I think slaves have a very little effect on the hate foreign nations have towards us.

hi ,

, in several PBEM games where one player bought a worker from an other player , inwhere the first player had very good relations with the civilization from the worker the next turn relations became not so good , .... its like the AI knows at all times where its workers are , ......

have a nice day

	04-01-2003 22:34									#19
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Getting tired of the subject now.
I agree with Spiffor . Let us the slaves, doesn't matter how, but let them be of more use then they're now.

Aidun

	05-01-2003 01:32									#20
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Whether we put foreign workers into a city or domestic workers into a city first ultimately doesn't matter in the scheme of things. They will produce the EXACT same amount of shields.

It makes better economic sense to put a domestic worker into a city first. We no longer have to support them (which automatically frees up 1 LPT per domestic worker), they will now PRODUCE gold (depending on tile worked in a city). In theory, each worker will have a gain of at least 1 LPT and possibly more, depending on tile worked. For the sake of argument, we'll say they produce 1 LPT on a tile. This worker now effectively has produced a net profit of 2 LPT.

However, a foreign worker (whom we don't support anyway) will be merged into a city and worked the same tile. Since we don't support them anyway, it will be a net of 0 LPT. However they will make 1 LPT off of the tile. So now the foreign worker is making 1 LPT compared to the 2 LPT that the integrated domestic worker is making.

It is much more economical to integrate our domestic workers into cities FIRST. Also, you do not have to deal with the case of disorder (in regards to civilizations that are still around) or even the possibility of cultural flipping.

The benefits of integrating domestic workers into our cities should be nearly 100% obvious. This is a game, don't let you're real life emotions regarding slavery mix in and become a detriment to the game.

	05-01-2003 03:06									#21
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White Bandit :
Please listen to my economic arguments in favor of emancipation. My whole point in this debate was about economics, not morals.

1) we have a huge population gap to fill, once hospitals are around

2) We do not want to wait for the natural population growth, because natural growth is slow in metropolises, especially because most of our territory is mined rather than irrigated

3) We want to integrate as many workers in cities as possible, once hospitals are around. Unfortunately, we don't have enough workers to do this as much as we need.

4) We want to keep the lowest possible amount of workers out of cities because of that

5) To do so, we need to let out there the best workers, i.e a few nationals.

If you consider that :
- we have enough workers to fill the population gap
- natural growth of cities is satisfying
you cannot understand these 5 points. However, we do not have enough workers to fill the population gap, and natural growth of cities will be extremely slow. That's why we have to integrate as many workers as possible. Thus we have to first integrate the least efficient workers, once hospitals are around.

	05-01-2003 04:18									#22
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I do see most of your points, and would be willing to shut up and agree with you, however I am confused on why it matters that we integrate the least effecient workers first?

Again, economically, it would be an advantage to actually keep them around at the moment. Or rather, at least integrate them LAST (mainly because they cost nothing at all to support, so it is an economically wise decision to get rid of the units that ARE costing us money to begin with).

Regarding effeciency, I believe you (I think?) also said there is maybe 3 more turns of real PW left before the workers really have nothing more to do. If that's the case, I agree that we can go ahead and integrate idle workers into cities. But however eneffecient our foreign workers are shouldn't matter since we can technically keep an unlimited amount of them (for free).

I have nothing against freeing the so called slaves. I personally think it would be an economically wise decision to integrate our domestic workers first before integrating foreign workers.

Also, a lot of the hinges on "National/Foreigner" worker ratios based on how many workers we have and what nationalities they are. I guess there would be a "sweet spot" so to speak that would be ideal to integrate workers into cities to maximize our economic profit.

Also we should come up with a proposal entitled:

Operation Screw Rome

Basically we're proposing to gift some of the newly captured roman cities away. Before we do this, we should REALLY milk them for all it is worth. Starve/Produce workers to send back home. Then gift them away. We probably wouldn't want to integrate the Romans into our cities since we will potentially go to war with them again, but this would greatly supplement our work force as well and provide a future "farm" for expanding the population in cities.

	05-01-2003 14:03									#23
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Whitebandit :
To put it simply, I guesstimate our needs to be 30 natives or 60 slaves. If we integrate slaves first, we'll have +30 pop in our cities than if we integrate natives first.
Johncnunn estimates we'll need 24 natives or 48 slaves. In his estimation, integrating slaves first rather than nationals would mean +24 pop in our cities. Still not too shabby.

	05-01-2003 14:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Operation Screw Rome Basically we're proposing to gift some of the newly captured roman cities away. Before we do this, we should REALLY milk them for all it is worth. Starve/Produce workers to send back home. Then gift them away. We probably wouldn't want to integrate the Romans into our cities since we will potentially go to war with them again, but this would greatly supplement our work force as well and provide a future "farm" for expanding the population in cities.

There is something I like about that
Mss

	05-01-2003 18:58									#25
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Do we need that +24 pop to get to max?

	05-01-2003 21:20									#26
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I support Operation: Screw Rome, with three minor adjustments:
1. Let's milk the Roman cities for workers, not settlers. We can delay their assimilation for after the war is over, and we can assimilate them into core cities that don't have overlapping tiles with other civs so that culture flipping won't be an issue, and that have lots of culture built up in the city so that the Roman citizens would assimilate quickly and become Apolytonians.
2. Other than using captured cities for this goal, we can also use cities which we can take from Ceaser in the negotiations table.
3. After we're done milking the cities, we should dispense them to several different other civs such as the Iroquois, the Babylonians or the Persians so that we'd have a buffer zone between us and Rome that is watched by several civs. That way, if Rome decide to attack us from the South, they'll have to sign RoPs with at least two civs to get to our territory.

	05-01-2003 23:10									#27
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Shiber: I like your idea, but I don't think it should be dispersed. We should instead give them away in layers. Layer one could be the cities bordering what's left of Rome, etc. That way the Romans have to sign RoP's with every civ we give the cities away to, not just two or three.

	05-01-2003 23:15									#28
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That is, if we capture enough cities to be able to form more than two layers. If we do, then by all means I support adopting your proposal.

	06-01-2003 00:10									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I support Operation: Screw Rome, with three minor adjustments: 1. Let's milk the Roman cities for workers, not settlers. We can delay their assimilation for after the war is over, and we can assimilate them into core cities that don't have overlapping tiles with other civs so that culture flipping won't be an issue, and that have lots of culture built up in the city so that the Roman citizens would assimilate quickly and become Apolytonians. 2. Other than using captured cities for this goal, we can also use cities which we can take from Ceaser in the negotiations table. 3. After we're done milking the cities, we should dispense them to several different other civs such as the Iroquois, the Babylonians or the Persians so that we'd have a buffer zone between us and Rome that is watched by several civs. That way, if Rome decide to attack us from the South, they'll have to sign RoPs with at least two civs to get to our territory.

hi ,

good , try to cut out as many as you can and divide them all over

have a nice day

	06-01-2003 00:29									#30
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Yep Shiber, I agree with your plan.

Mss