13-02-2003 09:05									#61
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I went into chat, and Trip approached me...

He talked about an alliance, I led him on... not saying anything like no or yes, but commenting on how we might be able to help them:
-have our workers make a road to their cities (this would also help us in our real intentions)
-get a horseman to disconnect ND's iron (of course this won't happen )

But I learned a few things:

ND has 4 swordsmen - 1 vet, 3 regs.
Lux can have 3 swordsmen in 6 turns, or a couple horsemen
Lux's only barracks is in the city right next to horses
Lux has a worker near our boarder
Lux is not currently connected to iron - they need their only worker to make a colony.
Lux had planned to attack in 10 more turns - they are ill prepared!
Trip: "We didn't expect an attack so fast"

	13-02-2003 17:14									#62
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Hmmmm.... I say let me talk to trip. In the public forums I have said nothing but negative things about ND, but that is mainly because ND wasn't 'poly. And I am sure that Trips entire team knows me to be a little hot-headed. I could tell him how "I want to smack ND off the face of Bob! How I am trying to convince my team to do a three-way to totally Apolyton ND. I'm sure I can make my rants very believable....

	13-02-2003 17:34									#63
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Gosh, I have let it slip so many times that we are attacking ND that I am certain the message has gotten through to Lux already that we are their friends

Our communications should not change...if we regulary rant about ND's death, then we should continue to do so.
If we have never mentioned it before...then dont start doing it now as they will become suspicious.

We are so close now...we dont want to blow it.

	13-02-2003 17:54									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 They don't expect a thing... The terms are that if Lux does the smart thing and surrenders to us, we will allow them into our team! This brings up an interesting point: what happens to 'dead' team's members? Do they join whichever other team they want? Do you think that no Luxian would want to join us because we wiped them out?

Wow... had not thought of that.

We can come out of this very well.

If ND does a quick kill, Lux may know they are over and done with.
If we have entered the war, will they really want to "surrender" and join our team. Humans react very differently...I know I would rather fight to the death and disband my capital rather than letting an attacking team take it.
If we havent entered the war yet...maybe Lux we see us as their savior.
We could offer them a merge into our team.
1. they gift their cities to us.
2. they leave their warriors undefended. We can use them for a vet->elite->leader hunt.
3. They leave their capital undefended. We take the city.
4. Their members are welcomed into our team.

The problems with this is ....
We are in a military alliance pact with ND, If we dont attack, we could be seen as in breach of this pact.
We could expect a nasty reaction from ND, if they find out whats happened. They will see Lux as their enemy, and with so many Lux members in our team, they may go looking for some reason to attack us.

I still think this is up for some serious consideration.
If Lux is down to its last two cities...I think we should make the surrender offer.

Their members will have to make some sort of pledge before being accepted in our team.
They will be pissed to find out we have been plotting against them for weeks.

Regs

	27-02-2003 17:27									#65
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GF - I think we should send an urgent PM to Lux.

Tell them we will buy their worker for 10 gold.
It has to stand still and let us take it.

We will use the worker for no less than 25 turns.

After which, if Lux is still alive, they can purchase it back for 10 gold.
To request the worker back, they must give us a 8 turn warning. This will allow us to stop its actions and return it to our capital. If we cannot meet the 8 turn deadline, the price to purchase back the warrior will reduce by 1gpt.

We might get a slave for 10g if lux gets wiped out.
Or we might get free use of a slave for 25 rounds.

A good deal for for us and Lux.

Regs

	27-02-2003 18:33									#66
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If no one is opposed, I'll send off a PM in about 6 hours. If anyone wants to do it before then, go ahead, so long as you post that you have done it in this thread.

	28-02-2003 16:13									#67
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Was just chatting with BFM and he is proposing the following deal to his team:

They let us capture the worker.

We make peace in 5 turns and sell Mapmaking to them for 40 gold, and they will have the option of buying the Worker back later at an agreed upon price.

	02-03-2003 03:40									#68
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From BFM:

quote: Worker Proposal Hello GhengisFarb and Panzer, In the recent chat I had with Ghengis, we talked about our worker near our former capital. He feels alone, and wants to get home. We feel he needs your help :-) Ghengis proposed the following: GoW captures the worker, and... either 1) ...get to use it for X turns - then GoW moves it to their capital and turns it over to Lux. An amount of gold may be 'loaned' to Lux in this period for safety. 2) ...gives Lux Y gold as compensation. 3) ...gives Lux GoW's World Map. 4) ...offers Lux MapMaking for 40 gold. I have taken this to our people. We agree that it would be a waste if our worker would get disbanded or destroyed by ND or Barbarians. So we propose we do option 4, as described above. I hereby ask you to agree on this official proposal: "Glory of War is entitled to capture the Worker left by Lux Invicta. In return, Glory of War will offer Peace and MapMaking to Lux Invicta. Lux will then offer Peace and pay an amount of 40 gold to Glory of War. This deal is non-negotiable and will be completed at the earliest opportunity. This means that Glory of War will have acquired MapMaking, and Lux will have acquired all necessary techs needed for MapMaking." Also, we are debating the offer you made: Construction for our Free Medieval Tech (probably Monotheism). I will get back to you on that one. BFM

I suggest that we take this deal... get some use out of Lux. It is interesting that they want map making, however, because that would let them come across the straight (if theyre with Vox) and settle in their old area. We should probably warn ND and get both of us to settle in old Lux ASAP

	02-03-2003 13:18									#69
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So the deal is..

We give MapMaking
Lux gives 1 worker, and 40 gold.

I wish we could include a no-tech whore clause.
Again... if they have bought a city from Vox or GS, then we can assume that MM will go straight to their partner as well.

	02-03-2003 17:23									#70
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I say no. We are at war. We have two move horsemen that can sneak up on the worker beyond its range of view and forcable take it with out Lux even knowing we did it.

	02-03-2003 17:34									#71
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I am for it.
They have been very successful in evasion and have denied ND everything.
They will stick the worker on a mountain and disband it before anything gets even close.
If we dont agree, they could just disband it on the next round.

	03-03-2003 05:25									#72
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I am for it, ND seems to want peace now that Lux is off the continent and we have 3 turns to negotiate a trade with each of the other civs for Mapmaking thus disallowing Lux any chance to profit from it my already having trades locked in and trading to each of the other civs on the same turn.

We get 40 gold from Lux and a worker, which is pretty much everything Lux has I would guess. They would have gotten Mapmaking from someone else anyway and there is no Non-Agression treaty that says we can't declare war on them later if they piss us off. Right now securing our continent seems more strategically important than locating on another contested contient.

	03-03-2003 09:45									#73
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Then they have sold their soul to Vox or GS.

We must get an agreement from both of those teams and sell MM ASAP. Otherwise Lux will just gift it to their new owners.

	03-03-2003 15:04									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Then they have sold their soul to Vox or GS. We must get an agreement from both of those teams and sell MM ASAP. Otherwise Lux will just gift it to their new owners.

We appear to have a deal with GS, I'm not sure where Panzer is with Vox.

	03-03-2003 16:27									#75
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Yes... GS is a go...it should be available to us on this round.

	03-03-2003 16:57									#76
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From Trip:

quote: I'm afraid that we'll have to work out another deal regarding our Worker. We've been forced into a deal with Map Making with another team, and we'll need to re-negotiate a deal regarding your payment for our Worker. We must decide upon a fair trade before you play your turn because after that you won't be able to offer and accept a peace deal with us before you capture our Worker, and we'll have no assurance that you'll compensate us for it. If no deal is reached by the end of this turn, then Lux will be forced to disband the unit. Trip King Lux Invicta

	03-03-2003 17:57									#77
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??? I dont understand

Forced into another deal ?
GS has a no-tech whore clause for 10 turns

Who else has MM ?

Lux has sold their soul. We cant deal with them without the tech going straight to their owners.

Its going to be difficult to deal with them until we know there exact circumstances.

With regards to the worker ...
Perhaps to show our good faith, we offer to not move our Horseman. That gives us an extra round to negotiate a cash purchase for the worker.

And here is another thought. Lux may of sold their map to Vox and/or GS. Either by jpg or when they get MM.
This means Vox &/or GS dont really need our maps, as they will get a good idea from Lux.

GS did decline our map trade offer.

	04-03-2003 15:58									#78
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From Trip just now:

quote: quote: Trip wrote on 04-03-2003 00:20: Due to the changing situation, and our regained ability to trade with you for Map Making, as per your original offer, this is the official treaty which we have to offer you. It must be ratified by both teams before Lux plays its turn, meaning that GoW needs to reply within approximately 18 hours with an official response. Failure to do so will lead to the disbanding of the Lux Worker on the main continent, and cessation of further discussions as per this offer. [quote]On this turn (1425 BC), the Glory of War and Lux Invicta teams agree to the following, which, when accepted in an official manner by both teams, will become a contract of law and non-negotiable under the terms laid out. On the turn of 1400 BC, the Glory of War team will capture the Lux Invicta Worker which remains on the main continent, and, subsequently, on this same turn, offer Lux Invicta peace. When Lux Invicta receives the save, it will offer a sum of 40 gold in addition to the peace offered by Glory of War, accepting the offer when it sends it back. On the following turn, 1375 BC, Glory of War will then accept the peace offer, leading to a cessation of all further hostilities between the two teams until war is re-declared, and the conclusion of the first half of this trade deal. When the Civilization Advance "Map Making" is finished being researched or is acquired by the Glory of War team, on that turn it will offer this tech to Lux Invicta for no cost, accepting the offer on that turn. The following turn, Lux Invicta will accept the offer sent by Glory of War, finishing the deal, and leading to an expiration of this contract and all of the terms which it lays out. A failure to abide by the exact steps laid out in this agreement will void the agreement, giving the other team the ability to do whatever it wishes in compensation to the team which voided the agreement by its actions. This agreement is binding, and will last until the final step is enacted. Signed as official by Trip, King of Lux Invicta If this is acceptable, send it back with some official having agreed to it and proof that such agreement has taken place. If it is not, please promptly make any additions or changes necessary, and send back to myself and BFM as soon as possible.

I think we should agree to it, but we NEED a treaty with Vox for Mapmaking.

	04-03-2003 18:09									#79
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We have an agreement with GS for MM.
Therefore we can assume Lux has purchased a city from Vox.
When Lux gets MM from us, they will gift it to Vox.
Lux & Vox are the same team now.

I assume this is the reason why we are not getting any response from Vox. As they will get it from Lux.

So the Question is.... Is 40 gold & 1 worker enough for MM from Vox ?
What tech does Vox have that we want ?

If we dont sell it to Vox/Lux, can any other team do it ?
RP ?
GS - no because of a 10 turn no reselling clause.(This goes both ways, so we cant resell CoL to ND Yet)

If RP can resell, then 40 gold and a worker maybe all we get..and we should grab the chance.

If RP cant resell to Vox, then we can pressure Vox a little more.
Perhaps send back a response such as ...

"Dear Lux... Tell your Vox masters that 40 gold is not enough. If they wish to purchase MM from the GoW, then please get them to PM us immediately. If they want to give us your worker, then we will offer excellent rates. If they tell you to disband the worker, then tell them they can pay full retail price."

Etc etc

A slave that works half pace is not worth the hassle. Our own workers are far better value.

	04-03-2003 19:01									#80
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I think Vox is stalling. Maybe we should revise the Lux contract to include a no-trade clause.

I got a PM from Betahound, but it was just "Hi Panzer32. This is currently under discussion on the floor of the Voxian senate. Will get back to you shortly.".

	04-03-2003 19:29									#81
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No.

Tell Trip we will only deal with his parent. Screw Trip. Forget the worthless worker.

Think about this. 40 gold and a worker for MM? Would the AI even accept this? Think about the GS deal we have going. 100 gold for CoL, Then they give us 130 for MM? Their deal is 30+ CoL for MM.

Additionally, GS has yet to prove to be dishonest. Lux, on the other hand, has proven that they can't be tursted.

Tell Lux "no", then push Vox harder for a deal. If Vox discovers that they will no longer be able to get MM from Lux, then they might open up to better possibilities (plus, they have all Lux's money to play with). The only down fall would be if Vox made a deal with GS for the tech. I know we have a no-trade clause with them (and I am inclined to belive they will honor it) but they might be willing to wait the ten turns as long as they can research something else.

In the end, we should not trade with Lux. Let Vox and GS deal with them. Vox can offer a better deal. We could also use Vox's ownership of Lux to our advantage. Set up a deal that is in their favor that includes the 10 turn no trade clause. But add the clause that their new puppet lets us capture their worker. Vox with then put pressure on Lux to let us capture their worker so they can get their "good deal from GoW". Vox will get a chanch to see the "loyality" they have from Lux. If Lux even hesitates, it will put tension between Vox and Lux. If Lux flat out says "no" then we restructure the deal with Vox (make it something almost totally outragous), start to negotiate a trade but leave the "Good deal" open as a possibility. Every time Lux says no to Vox, their bond weakens and we get stronger.

I also bet that part of the deal between Lux and Vox is that all tech aquired by Lux be given to Vox irreguardless of "no-trade clauses". the same might not nessacarily be true the other way around. If we make a "no-trade clause" with Vox, and they trade it to Lux anyway, we can call Vox on it in the open forum. Their reaction would be to reveal the "No-trade clause Exception" rule in their deal with Lux. It would then be in the open and teams would then be less likely to deal with either team or charge what they would get from both. In the end, this works to our faver either way.

Last edited by Donegeal on 04-03-2003 at 19:36

	04-03-2003 19:38									#82
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I sent Trip this:

quote: Surely Vox can cough up another 40 gold or Philosophy to sweeten the deal since your two civs are both getting this?

I figure we can get ND to trade Vox Currency for Philosophy.

	05-03-2003 02:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 I got a PM from Betahound, but it was just "Hi Panzer32. This is currently under discussion on the floor of the Voxian senate. Will get back to you shortly.".

An obvious stall.

Tell them to deal with us direct, as negotiating through their Luxian puppets is a waste of both our time.