03-01-2003 09:41									#1
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It has come to my attention that I did not carry out the orders of the team fully. IT is not that I wanted to do things my way, it was that I had missunderstood the orders and wishes of the team and made a misstake.
If you think that I have gone to far and want someone else as President of the team I will understand and no hard fellings. I do want to be part of the team still and make this a good game for all involved. I really dont know what else to say.

	03-01-2003 13:56									#2
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Well, as it was me pointing out the mistake to Jack, I guess it's now time for me to add a few words on this topic.

I must say I am really unhappy about what happened. Not because we would have lost the game because of the mistakes done in the past. Even though fortifiying the warrior, mining the last riverbank tile, sending our settler unescorted, and now returning Angus back to Legopolis were more or less mistakes, they were not that serious on their own. But they are adding up... and we are still playing with just a couple of units...

Anyway, the actual reason for being so unhappy about this situation is I hate stirring things this way. I have absolutely nothing personal against Jack (just the contrary!) and I truly regret having to question his Presidency. Moreover, being currently his VP and a potential successor of him, it may also look like I am just after his post, seeking to grab "more power"... but I am not.

The fact is that all the questionable moves resulted directly or indirectly from not following the forum discussions closely enough. Out of my experience, it takes as much as two or three hours a day to stay fully in touch - that is roughly how much time I spend in the Legoland forum, reading, posting, updating... Even just reading and absorbing all what is being posted takes a minimum of an hour every day, I'd say. I have no illusions that everybody could devote that much time to the demogame - the game is supposed to be fun, not another "job".

However, at least our President should be able to. Otherwise, we'll inevitably be experiencing further misunderstandings and more of less-than-optimal moves. Which, in a way, spoils the fun for everybody - what good is that we are able to come up with a good plan, if it is later not carried out in-game?

I'd really like to prevent any hard feelings... and starting a broad debate on this topic may easily provoke some... Thus... considering the fact that according to our not-yet-adopted Constitution, the Term 1 of the Legoland Executive is just about over, I would suggest we hold elections for Term 2. This way, it should be easy to find out how serious the problem is from our members' point of view without actually running into too much details.

Note: as a tribute to our Term 1 President, I suggest we name the second city whatever he wishes. After all, some time ago we decided we would let our members name cities whatever they want... and granting the right to name our second city to our first President seems to be the most obvious choice to me.

	03-01-2003 14:21									#3
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Jack,

We all make mistakes mate, its a team game and fair enough, maybe you misread or misunderstood the orders. I think we can forgive you I don't know if you were suggesting you should resign or not. Personally, i think since we are due elections soon (aren't we) you should hold on until they take place. Whether you want to run or not is entirely up to you but I imagine you still have a good bit of support

Vondrack,

I think everyone appreciates the time and effort you put into this team. More than anyone else I would say. Certainly more than me, and I'll be the first to admit I haven't exactly had the time to devote myself to the game up until now. Thats why I shall probably stand down as Military Architect and let someone else have a go. I think I might be more use in a general role anyway.

As for your comments on Jack, its probably fair to say that we are all a little disappointed that there have been a few mistakes made but none of them have been catashrophic and they haven't caused us much disturbance. I think holding the elections is probably a fair idea though and I'll be happy enough with whoever wins. Maybe its time for someone else to have a go, maybe Jack is doing a good job, we shall see how we feel

	03-01-2003 16:12									#4
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Jack, no problem, we are all human and make mistakes. I'm not that unhappy like Vondrack on what happened (it isn't a tragedy, after all), but I agree in general with his point of view: being a President requires more time spent in the team forums. You spend too little time in our forums, Jack, and barely participate to the debates. I personally would expect more from a President. (but I want you to continue until the elections)

Btw, Constitution and elections: there is a thread, called The Constitution: state the [TBA]s ( http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=70395 ) where we vote about the terms of the ministers, voting procedures, and so on. (You didn't vote yet, Jack, nor did you Redstar). If we finalize this thread we can vote the Constitution and held our first "legal" elections.

	03-01-2003 17:12									#5
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I didn't vote on the constitution because I don't think its necessary, its too much to have to worry about, and to be perfectly honest I don't really care about it. If everyone else in the team votes for it and wants to play by that set of rules then fair enough, i'll step into line but I think its massively over-complicating the whole process of deciding which way to move our units.

	03-01-2003 17:41									#6
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I understand if you are not interested in the nr. of votes needed for Constitution amendments, for example, but don't you think it's necesarry to know how long should a presidential/ministerial term be? Or how many of us should agree for a declaration of war?
Some are important issues, IMHO. But of course, you have the right to abstain.

	03-01-2003 17:44									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I'm not that unhappy like Vondrack on what happened (it isn't a tragedy, after all)

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood. My unhappiness was/is caused not by what happened ingame - I do agree the mistakes were not that bad and will hopefully not have a major impact on our game. I just felt bad about the fact that in order to pursue the best for the team as a whole, I felt the urge to raise my voice against someone I personally have no problem with and even shared quite a bit of responsibility with.

Exactly because we are all humans, the last thing I want is to make anyone feel too bad about what happened. OTOH, I really wish we avoid the same happening again.

	03-01-2003 18:04									#8
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Well, I undestand now. But I'm still not as unhappy as you are, since you were the one who took the courage to raise your voice against the President

Now that I'm joking about it I feel even worse than before. To make my position clear enough:
1. Jack is the team founder and he deserved to be our first President.
2. It is a game so let not take it too seriously.
3. We still want have fun with it (and losing is not fun) so we need at least in ministerial positions people who are willing to dedicate an amount of their spare time to discuss and decide things (strategies, possibilities, risks, and so forth). The President should be someone who follows the forum discussions closely enough not to make ingame mistakes, even when there are no clear orders from the team. Simple as that.

	03-01-2003 18:58									#9
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Tiberius,

Of course there are things such as length of term which should be agreed upon but it is the whole constitution idea that I have a problem with. Its not necessary. We seem to be trying to create a democratic system when in fact we need a system that gets things done. It only has to be simple. Post a poll as far in advance as you can and take the majority view, if people don't/can't vote well then thats too bad. If a decision has to be made on the spot then thats the President's job, or VP and if there are people about to discuss it with then all good, else he has to do what he thinks is best. If not then the role of president seems to be only to play the turn, in which case I'm not surprised people would get pissed off with it.

Of course this is my view, and I'm not letting it stand in the way of my participation. I'll go along with what the majority want of course.

	03-01-2003 20:28									#10
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I believe a further problem that has been the lack of detail in the ministers orders. Since this is the early game, the orders will be minimal and some times none at all. Ideally, there should be 2-3 threads that the President/Vice President must reference for all orders. As the game gets more complex and the orders become lengthy, detail orders are mandatory.

I fully agree that the P/VP must read all threads and be up to date on current discussions. It is unreasonable to expect them to reference all threads for the orders.

The ministers have made progress in ensuring the Order threads are maintained, which is good. In my opinion, these lack of orders have contributed to the mistakes.

Finally, I know that we are very proud of our turn speed time. We have been very efficient in moving the game along. I suggest to the present and future P/VP to take the time to do the turn right. If there is reasonable doubt in your mind, then you must take the time to consult threads, PM ministers, email the team. Since we are all over the world, there is bound to be someone who can help.

	03-01-2003 20:52									#11
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Fully agree mate and I hold my hands up to say that as Military architect I haven't really been posting any orders.

	03-01-2003 21:55									#12
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I think that part of it was that I was rushing out turns too much. I have had questions, but though I should just play the turn as I thought best to get the save moving. Next time I should ask others.

	03-01-2003 22:03									#13
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Jack,

I wouldn't worry about it too much - we have still been getting organized in getting the various orders made and put into one place and as a result you and Vondrack have occasionally been flying blind.

No criticism intended toward our honourable ministers either as I have said frequently - it is EARLY in the game still (just doesn't feel like it at times as it has been a month since we started hehe) and we are still getting organized.

Besides some of your "errors", have proven to be beneficial such as moving Conan southwest instead of southeast resulted in greater knowledge of the west and getting our new warrior.

The only concern I have that perhaps should be addressed is the need for faster turns - now with that cursed TIMECOUNTER of borc's, some of the other teams are becoming more aware of the slower teams which unfortunately we are the slowest at the moment.

Perhaps instead of Vondrack having to wait 18 hours to play, it should be 12 hours instead.

	03-01-2003 22:28									#14
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I agree with Sharpe.
Maybe if I could add something : Jack, I think you're very busy these days with RL, and cannot be up-to-date with what happens in this forum. During this period, you should let Vondrack play the turn as soon as he gets it. When you'll have more spare time for Legoland, you'll assume your duties back as a fully functional president.

	03-01-2003 22:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Maybe if I could add something : Jack, I think you're very busy these days with RL, and cannot be up-to-date with what happens in this forum. During this period, you should let Vondrack play the turn as soon as he gets it. When you'll have more spare time for Legoland, you'll assume your duties back as a fully functional president.

Hm... I haven't thought of this, but actually... this might be a fine solution, if others don't mind. As I've already stated, I am not after any titles or offices (even though I am ready to serve the team in any position considered appropriate). My concerns are only about unnecessary mistakes (irrespective of their actual importance and/or impact) caused by the fact that Jack probably doesn't have time to follow the team forum closely enough. Should we agree on that Jack is to retain his title in a kinda honorary way, and someone else (perhaps me, considering the horrible amount of time I spend here ) is actually going to play our turns until Jack feels ready to fully assume his duties, that would be perfectly okay with me.

That would also solve the problem with how much time we need to pass the savegame onto Gathering Storm.

An idea worth considering and one I would certainly not oppose.

	03-01-2003 23:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack As I've already stated, I am not after any titles or offices

...being a King finally, I may add.

	03-01-2003 23:03									#17
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As a minister, I can admit that I have missed getting my orders in a prompt and timely fashion on occasion, and for that I apologize. As has been said, this is still early in the game, and many of us are still getting a feel for how this whole system works. This is my first DG, and I think I've gotten the hang of it now (I hope...). To err is human, as they say, so no one should be banging their head against the wall too much.

That being said, however, some good points have been made. Everyone, especially ministers, should be participating heavinly in the forum discussions. Even if specific orders haven't been officially given, the will of the team can be pretty easily seen in most of the main discussions.

Also, Spiffor and Sharpe are right; we have become the slowest team. I think in the interest of not hearing about it later from the other teams, perhaps Vondrack should be allowed to take the turns in a speedier fashion, instead of having to wait the full 18.

	04-01-2003 02:09									#18
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack ...being a King finally, I may add.

That was a fast one. I needed more than 2 years to become a King. Congrats, mate

	04-01-2003 02:19									#19
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LOL...I was reading the TimeCounter backwards. I thought we were the fastest. I was 100% wrong.

I think holding the scheduled election (per our soon to be approved constitution) would be the best solution.

I nominate vondrack for the Presidency of Legoland.

	04-01-2003 02:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Jack, Perhaps instead of Vondrack having to wait 18 hours to play, it should be 12 hours instead.

I fully agree with this. Given the fact that Vondrack spends so many hours here on Poly and knows in detail every discussion, decision, etc of Legoland while Jack is busy with other things, it would be a very good idea to reduce the 18 waiting hours to 12. However, whoever plays the turn should wait as long as it is necessary if important decisions are in balance.

	04-01-2003 07:40									#21
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Part of the reason I think that this happened to me was when I took a week off for the finals at my school. I did not really catch up in time to play the turns, at least I thought I was caught up on all the info I needed to know.