04-01-2003 11:21									#1
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In the latest thread about Iraq, I made the comment that if the US attacks Iraq, I hope that the US loses, or at least takes a massive military beating.

Obviously, I got jumped on because of that comment. I even got called a traitor (oh no, not THAT ).

But my question is, why is it OK for US soldiers to kill Iraqis, but not OK for Iraqis to kill US soldiers? Why is it OK to wish that the US conducts a bloodless (for the US) campaign, destroying the Iraqi military (and incidentally killing thousands), but not OK to wish that the US gets frustrated in its aggression, and takes several thousand (several tens of thousands, even) of casualties?

I just don't see the difference. Maybe someone can help me out here.

	04-01-2003 11:26									#2
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Why would you possibly want your country to have difficulties? why would you possibly want your countrymen to die?

you may not like government policies but you are still an American...

	04-01-2003 11:27									#3
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quote: Why would you possibly want your country to have difficulties? why would you possibly want your countrymen to die?

Why would I want innocent Iraqis to die? If it comes down to it, I don't care what the nationality of the soldier is, I'd rather see the aggressor die than the poor bastard who got conscripted into the army, doesn't want to be there, and in any case, is not attacking anyone.

quote: you may not like government policies but you are still an American...

Relevance?

	04-01-2003 11:31									#4
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David:

Would you want your family to have difficulties paying the bills? of course you don't want your neighbours to have difficulties either but if one family got to have problems, it's better them than your family right?


thanks

	04-01-2003 11:34									#5
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quote: Would you want your family to have difficulties paying the bills? of course you don't want your neighbours to have difficulties either but if one family got to have problems, it's better them than your family right?

Three points:

1)It's better for other people to have difficulties from a purely selfish perspective. Objectively speaking, it's the same.

2)My family vs. another family having trouble paying bills is not analogous to the US/Iraq situation, because the two families are not causing each other to have trouble. My family, for example, isn't breaking into my neighbors house and robbing him to prevent him from paying bills, for example. The two are not interconnected.

3)Silly example, with an emotional appeal. It just doesn't make logical sense.

	04-01-2003 11:35									#6
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Oh, and 4)In what way is the US government my family? I feel no absolute personal loyalty or compassion towards the US government, whereas I do to my family.

	04-01-2003 11:40									#7
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You actually make some pretty good points Dave.
Of course, I hope that somehow neither Yanquis nor Iraqis die. But that is looking less and less likely by the day.

	04-01-2003 11:42									#8
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quote: Of course, I hope that somehow neither Yanquis nor Iraqis die.

Agreed.

	04-01-2003 11:42									#9
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Dave:

Leave the country if you got no loyalty to the United States...

	04-01-2003 11:44									#10
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how about this Dave...

Can we assume you are against Saddam Hussein's dictatorship?

	04-01-2003 11:48									#11
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Albert: Loyalty should come first and foremost to humanity in general rather than just a certain group of people. I believe that all people are equally part of God's creation, but whether you agree with me or not on that point, you will likely agree with me that nation-states, as we know them, are no more than articificial constructions of transcendent institutions of power.

	04-01-2003 11:54									#12
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monkspider:

I'm taking this a different direction now... assuming you are against Saddam Hussein's dictatorship and that (despite your leftist beliefs) an American-supported Iraqi republic would be at least an improvemnt over Saddam... then the deaths of a certain number of Iraqis can be minimal compared to the greater good of deposing a dictator


thanks

	04-01-2003 11:59									#13
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Hmmm, I have to agree with Albert Speer.

Also, I find it interesting that Floyd would rather see the troops of a dictator trimph over the troops of a republic. Does this say something about his underlying political beliefs?

	04-01-2003 12:02									#14
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no Imran... Floyd is completely a libertarian nut...

he is looking at this from an objective standpoint saying that a death is a death and a dead Iraqi matters just as much as a dead American... that is true except those Iraqis who die are dying so that millions of other Iraqis may have freer lives... it is unfortunate that blood must be spilled but if it's the only way... so be it.


thanks

	04-01-2003 12:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd In the latest thread about Iraq, I made the comment that if the US attacks Iraq, I hope that the US loses, or at least takes a massive military beating. Obviously, I got jumped on because of that comment. I even got called a traitor (oh no, not THAT ). But my question is, why is it OK for US soldiers to kill Iraqis, but not OK for Iraqis to kill US soldiers? Why is it OK to wish that the US conducts a bloodless (for the US) campaign, destroying the Iraqi military (and incidentally killing thousands), but not OK to wish that the US gets frustrated in its aggression, and takes several thousand (several tens of thousands, even) of casualties? I just don't see the difference. Maybe someone can help me out here.

Why don't you simply get a job at a munitions factory and rig explosives to kill US soldiers, sailors and airmen. Or better yet, why don't you cut parachute webbings as well. If there were enough like you killing Americans from within, we would not need to have Iraqi's do it.

BTW, David, even if you think such actions would be moral, you would quickly be beaten to death by enraged mobs of average Americans who hold a different view.

	04-01-2003 12:10									#16
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Alb - That's a more intruiging question. There is no guarantee that this regime would necessarily be better than Sadaams. Certainly America's recent adventure in Afganistan leaves us less than optimistic, for the most part.

However, for the sake of arguement let's assume that somehow America sets up a functioning county with semi-democratic institutions that, on balance, offers a moderate increase in standards of living for the average Iraqi. This doesn't take into account how such an increase in living standards can occur, due to the widescale destruction of Iraqi infastructure, and where the massive fundage necessary for rebuilding would come from, and so forth. But again, for the sake of arguement, we will assume that the funding is somehow taken care of in some way. Anyway, what this creates is a situation that essentially says that a 5% to 10% increase in living standards (or if you want to be really optimistic, 20%) is worth X. Where X equals the number of Iraqis killed, likely to be at least in the tens of thousands, based on the precedent of the first Gulf War. To put this in perspective a bit, Is it worth the entire city of Philadelphia having a modest increase in living standards if it meant that several neighborhoods in Philadelphia had to be completely destroyed? You see, this creates an existentialist dilemma, you just can't put a value on human life. Moreover, this situation doesn't take into account the possibility that increased living standards may have occured had the United States not invaded, by some unknown scenario (sure it may seem unlikely but ya never know).

Despite all this, the greatest problem that with this arguement is that all the billions and billions of dollars the United States spends on a war that may or may not increase the living standards of Iraqis by a modest ammount could have been spent in various philanthropic ventures that would have increased the living standards of the entire world by much more than any possible increase that the war could bring.

thanks

	04-01-2003 12:12									#18
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**** it. I dont feel like arguing tonight.

	04-01-2003 12:20									#19
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quote: Can we assume you are against Saddam Hussein's dictatorship?

I am politically and morally against any dictatorship or tyranny, wherever it may be.

quote: then the deaths of a certain number of Iraqis can be minimal compared to the greater good of deposing a dictator

Loss of life is never "minimal". In addition, the United States has been responsible for many more deaths over the years than Iraq has, so your argument breaks down right there. The US is not some ultimate good guy out to rid the world of evil.

quote: that is true except those Iraqis who die are dying so that millions of other Iraqis may have freer lives

Did anyone ask the Iraqis we're killing, or are we just playing God again?
Further, I'm not sure how being a puppet state of the US will lead to a freer life.

Imran,

quote: Also, I find it interesting that Floyd would rather see the troops of a dictator trimph over the troops of a republic.

Well, when the republic is behaving immorally, they shouldn't get a free pass just because the form of government is a republic (sorta) rather than a dictatorship.

Ned,

quote: Why don't you simply get a job at a munitions factory and rig explosives to kill US soldiers, sailors and airmen. Or better yet, why don't you cut parachute webbings as well. If there were enough like you killing Americans from within, we would not need to have Iraqi's do it.

If I was going to kill someone, it would be the politicians who start wars, not the soldiers who are forced to fight them.

monk,

Good last post, I agree completely (except of course that bit about spending money on the rest of the world, that money should properly be returned to the taxpayer it was taken from by force - then if they want to donate to charity they can).

	04-01-2003 12:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd monk, Good last post, I agree completely (except of course that bit about spending money on the rest of the world, that money should properly be returned to the taxpayer it was taken from by force - then if they want to donate to charity they can).

Well I kind of figured you would disagree with me on that last little bit.

	04-01-2003 12:26									#21
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Of course, the argument there is the same as one I used above that you seemed to agree with:

WRT killing Iraqis to make the lives of others better, that's wrong because we are playing God and not giving them a choice in the matter.

Similarly,

WRT using my money for charity, that's wrong because I don't get a choice in the matter.

	04-01-2003 12:27									#22
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quote: Well, when the republic is behaving immorally, they shouldn't get a free pass just because the form of government is a republic (sorta) rather than a dictatorship.

But in a battle against a republic and a dictatorship, favoring massive deaths by the republic basically indicates support for the dictatorship.

	04-01-2003 12:40									#23
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quote: But in a battle against a republic and a dictatorship, favoring massive deaths by the republic basically indicates support for the dictatorship.

That's a generalization. I support the side that is not acting aggressively in this particular situation. That is, in a situation where one nation is attacking another nation, I'm going to want the nation which is being attacked to win, regardless of type of government.

	04-01-2003 12:54									#24
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It might be a generalization, but I find it a valid one.

	04-01-2003 13:00									#25
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So you are saying that a country with an elected government should be able to do anything it wants to a country with an unelected government?

	04-01-2003 15:00									#26
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quote: I'm taking this a different direction now... assuming you are against Saddam Hussein's dictatorship and that (despite your leftist beliefs) an American-supported Iraqi republic would be at least an improvemnt over Saddam... then the deaths of a certain number of Iraqis can be minimal compared to the greater good of deposing a dictator

Why would an American-supported Iraqi regime (republic, my arse - look at Afghanistan, an extremely unstable confederation of warlords) be any better than Saddam? It isn't in the US' interests to give the Kurds or Shiites too much power because of Turkey and Iran, respectively, so there will likely be a rather authoritarian regime to maintain power. Furthermore, since the regime would have US blessings, there would be no no-fly zones protecting the Kurds in Northern Iraq, just as there are no no-fly zones protecting the Kurds in Turkey. Right now, Iraqi Kurds aren't being repressed, for the most part. That'll change in the event of a regime change by the US.

So, the net result is that a bunch of people will die and a bunch of infrastructure will be destroyed to make the situation much worse. That's not my idea of moral use of force.

	05-01-2003 08:19									#27
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Bump.

I'm still waiting for a non-bullshit answer to my question...

	05-01-2003 08:44									#28
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quote: But my question is, why is it OK for US soldiers to kill Iraqis, but not OK for Iraqis to kill US soldiers?

Answer: IMHO it ain't.

But from the perspective of someone who disagrees, it is alright becuase the deaths of Iraqis is a means to an end, i.e. the end of Saddam's regime and destruction of his WoMD.
The logic is a few thousand, or hundred thousand dead Iraqis is better than Saddam causing the whole middle east to fall into war.

	05-01-2003 08:44									#29
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"WRT killing Iraqis to make the lives of others better, that's wrong because we are playing God and not giving them a choice in the matter."

I agree with you David, but for different reasons. There are no fundamental differences between Iraqis and Americans- they are both groups of people, therefore deserving of life and respect. Their rights are based on their personhood, and not because they have no choice in the matter.

For bias sake, I'm an evangelical Mennonite, which requests members to take non-combat service in times of conscription.

One argument in favour of the difference is the 'just war' theory espoused by Catholics, and many other Christians. Iraq, because of their belligerency with nuclear weapons towards United States, threatens to kill a great number of people. By containing them now, we can remove this threat and avoid deaths of a large number of people.

The question is one of both intent and capacity. Iraq must be capable as well as willing to use nuclear weapons on the US in order to justify the use of force and the loss of lives on BOTH sides. This is why the importance of inspections to determine the true capacity of Iraq's arsenal.

Lives can only balance lives. Nothing else. A 'just' war cannot be fought for reasons of resources or 'betterment of society.'

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 06-01-2003 at 02:11

	05-01-2003 10:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Iraq, because of their belligrency with nuclear weapons towards United States, threatens to kill a great number of people.

The only problems with that statement are that the only country ever to have used nuclear weapons and the only country threatening to kill great numbers of people is the United States, logistically Iraq could not attack America, only American troops that are in places they shouldn't be, Iraq was never "belligerent" toward the United States until we decided we should defend Kuwait, and, as far as I know, Iraq has never threatened to attack the United States.