05-01-2003 10:54									#1
	ripoff galley Tired of ads?

i know this is stupid and short, and i dont care if anyone replies:

a Roman galley just went over 10 turns (I think it's around 15 actually) in nothing but ocean squares. damn ripoff AI.

	05-01-2003 11:59									#2
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Yours can also, IF you have the tech to do so.

	05-01-2003 16:32									#3
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Edit ocean as impassable to wheeled, flag galleys as wheeled and galleys can't move on ocean.

Makes it tougher if you get an isolated start and restricts suicide runs but does slow down contact on continents maps and stops the AI on the other side of the map turning up on your doorstep with an archer and a warrior and declaring war.

	05-01-2003 17:47									#4
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I wouldnt make this change, since if you start on an island it could potentially kill any chance for you to colonize and/or meet other civs until mid-late middle ages, even with the lighthouse. As far the "landing and declaring war" part, if you are concerned about an archer and warrior attacking you, then you are not defending your cities well enough.

	05-01-2003 18:11									#5
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I'm not concerned, last time it happened I was just building my first Sipahi units and Ragnar gave me the opportunity to trigger my GA. I do play with this mod and am happy with it but it is a personal choice.

	05-01-2003 18:26									#6
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iirc, in one of the chats with firaxis, one firaxean mentioned that the AI NEVER ends his turn on a tile which potentially kills the unit --> no suicide runs.

and i havn't experience the computer cheating with this either. probably he was on sea squares and had the great lighthouse...

	05-01-2003 18:29									#7
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Not if all your opponents have cavarly while you're devending your cities with warriors

	05-01-2003 21:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Edit ocean as impassable to wheeled, flag galleys as wheeled and galleys can't move on ocean.

Damn you beat me to it! That can only be done if he has PTW of course. I've done the same to Ironclads, it makes Frigates useful for longer.

	05-01-2003 22:30									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Damn you beat me to it! That can only be done if he has PTW of course. I've done the same to Ironclads, it makes Frigates useful for longer.

Credit where credit is due, I got this idea from another post, presumably one of yours.

	05-01-2003 22:42									#10
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Credit where credit is due, I got this idea from another post, presumably one of yours.

Cool. Yes I did post something about that awhile back. A handy flag that "Wheeled" attribute!

	06-01-2003 03:48									#11
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"and i havn't experience the computer cheating with this either. probably he was on sea squares and had the great lighthouse..."

:| I followed him...

If I must prove, it's on the Europe map, huge. He just dropped off a settler and a warrior in ICELAND. Rome is, correctly, in Italy. Going from Ireland to Iceland is at least 10 turns on this map (and there is no x-axis-wrapping).

	06-01-2003 04:47									#12
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "and i havn't experience the computer cheating with this either. probably he was on sea squares and had the great lighthouse..." :| I followed him... If I must prove, it's on the Europe map, huge. He just dropped off a settler and a warrior in ICELAND. Rome is, correctly, in Italy. Going from Ireland to Iceland is at least 10 turns on this map (and there is no x-axis-wrapping).

Is it possible that the AI has Navigation? Also iceland is not far from Norway, how far did you follow this galley?

	06-01-2003 09:22									#13
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 i know this is stupid and short, and i dont care if anyone replies: a Roman galley just went over 10 turns (I think it's around 15 actually) in nothing but ocean squares. damn ripoff AI.

We've heard this one before. I once saw that, and I saw fleets of infantry-carrying AI galleys sailing on ocean tiles heading towards a northern town of mine they had no way of even knowing existed! What a crock.

I once spotted a German galley deep in the ocean. I exchanged maps with Berlin, and it had in reality been magically teleported across thousands of miles as there was blackness on the German maps between their homewaters and where I found that galley.

Yet more AI cheats.

	06-01-2003 09:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Is it possible that the AI has Navigation? Also iceland is not far from Norway, how far did you follow this galley?

It didn't have anything when I saw my ocean-going galley. Shouldn't make a difference as galleys didn't sail on oceans. (Viking longboats were not galleys).

Stop making excuses for this cheating AI.

	06-01-2003 12:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Stop making excuses for this cheating AI.

Stop finding pathetic excuses for trashing the game! You carried on ad nauseum about culture flippping, Firaxis provided a preference to turn it off. You've also made it clear you don't like Galleys crossing Oceans! Yet even when they provide the means to prevent this, you still complain!

Why? Do you not have a real life to live, that you feel compelled to come here and make yourself look like an idiot? The only reason I even noticed your post was because the site didn't recognize my cookie, I had to logon manually. I'm sure by now 99% of the people that come to this site have you on their ignore list. So why do you still bother?

	06-01-2003 13:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle It didn't have anything when I saw my ocean-going galley. Shouldn't make a difference as galleys didn't sail on oceans. (Viking longboats were not galleys). Stop making excuses for this cheating AI.

Coracle:

No excuses, just running down all the possiblities before declaring it a cheat, if you have a saved game, please post it, as I have never seen a gally cross an ocean without a sea pathway for it to use. (without knowing navigation)

BTW Nice to see you again, your ban at CFC was a bit heavy handed, don't blame ya for leaving

	06-01-2003 17:33									#17
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It seems this question will never die... The extremely simple rule is: if the civ has Navigation OR Magnetism, ALL its vessels can safely traverse ocean squares. Second, the AI will never end its turn in a tile where it has a risk of sinking. Now, how hard can this be to understand?

	06-01-2003 19:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Willem I've done the same to Ironclads, it makes Frigates useful for longer.

Ironclads in Civ are a really confused unit. Based on the picture they are meant to be the "Monitor" class ironclads which were coastal raiders more than anything. In fact the original USS Monitor was actually lost off the North Carolina coast due to rough sea conditions. So the Monitor was not really ocean going. But in Civ they are quite capable of ocean travel which suggests something more like an "Ironside" or the Royal Navy's HMS Warrior which really were ironclad frigates and were indeed ocean going.

really there should be a distinction:
Monitor: high attack+defense, low movement, sea only
Ironclad frigate: low attack, high defense + movement. ocean going.

but really who pays much attention to naval units till destroyers anyway?

	06-01-2003 19:54									#19
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace Ironclads in Civ are a really confused unit. Based on the picture they are meant to be the "Monitor" class ironclads which were coastal raiders more than anything. In fact the original USS Monitor was actually lost off the North Carolina coast due to rough sea conditions. So the Monitor was not really ocean going.

Which is why I've restricted them from Ocean travel. I felt that before, it was almost pointless building any Frigates since I only had to wait a short while before I could get Ironclads. Now though, there's still a role for them for overseas campaigns, where the Ironclad can't go. I find it works out much better that way.

	07-01-2003 00:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Which is why I've restricted them from Ocean travel. I felt that before, it was almost pointless building any Frigates since I only had to wait a short while before I could get Ironclads. Now though, there's still a role for them for overseas campaigns, where the Ironclad can't go. I find it works out much better that way.

Ironclads are made to represent all of the iron warships before they were made of steel (around 1900) Since these would include many ocean going vesels, this mod is not appropriate to me. Instead I have frigates upgrade to ironclads and ironclads upgrade to destroyers. Perhaps it would help to have an alternate icon for ironclads.

	07-01-2003 05:21									#21
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"It seems this question will never die... The extremely simple rule is: if the civ has Navigation OR Magnetism, ALL its vessels can safely traverse ocean squares"

"or"... I thought it makes it possible for sea squares.

and as i said, i followed him, as i wanted to see if it would show me the death animation...

so it was from ireland, but on a huge map, norway would be a ways away anyways (that sounded stupid)

	07-01-2003 05:38									#22
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "or"... I thought it makes it possible for sea squares.

Navigation allows all ships to cross the Ocean. Unless of course you mod the rules. Astronomy allows travel over Sea.

	07-01-2003 06:16									#23
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...too bad rome doesn't have navigation...

	07-01-2003 09:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 ...too bad rome doesn't have navigation...

Well as was pointed out, with PTW you can force them to not go over the ocean, if it really bothers you.

	07-01-2003 12:49									#25
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Bobo:

Are you playing with a map included in PTW or one of your own, all 'world' maps that I have played on have been so small, I would like to play on a large, med or european map if you have one. Please post a creenshot or a saved game I would like to see this ocean going galley in action

	07-01-2003 13:57									#26
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Well maybe they have Magnetism.

	07-01-2003 21:36									#27
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"Are you playing with a map included in PTW or one of your own, all 'world' maps that I have played on have been so small, I would like to play on a large, med or european map if you have one. Please post a creenshot or a saved game I would like to see this ocean going galley in action"

You'll love this map then... when I go to play it again I'll show a screen shot.

It did come with PTW, though. Start PTW, and go to scenarios. It's either Europe or European Terrain... click on one, and choose whichever one has the preview. Pick the huge size (i think it's on the same screen). I modded some stuff, like starting locations, units, and resources.

"Please post a creenshot or a saved game I would like to see this ocean going galley in action"

I can't prove it "went the distance" as it dropped off its warrior/settler on Iceland. I'll see if it starts moving off of Iceland and I'll try. (can only take one screen at a time though)

	07-01-2003 22:57									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

you can do more than 1 screenshot if you leave the graphics program open in the background (and switch with ALT-Tab). however, on huge maps, your RAM might be used to quite an extent so i wouldn't leave the other program open all the time (speed problems caused through permanent RAM-VM-swapping).
also, use a "simple" program. photoshop will grab too much RAM. paint shop pro works fine with me.

you could also save the game when the AI stops on the ocean tile. that's enough proof and noone will doubt it anymore

	07-01-2003 22:59									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

my 92 RAM (or whatever it is) can't handle it. It takes 3 minutes of loading between turns, loading and exiting the game respectively.

	07-01-2003 23:08									#30
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boah, 92 MB RAM (more likely 96 = 64+32) and you're playing large maps? wow