05-01-2003 18:59									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Clear Skies: Are you sure you aren't posting in the wrong thread? The social disorder diagnosis thread is two spaces below this one.

Posted there already :P
And the 'invunerability bubble' is irritating but necessary...they already lost Boromir, to lose anyone else would be pretty bad for the story. Although I thought in the book that Theoden didn't survive Helm's Deep...
And what's with Haldir and the elves turning up at Helm's Deep? Besides the fact that Haldir's an insufferable ponce, the whole point of Helm's Deep is that it's the turning of the tide, the 'last stand' of the beleaguered humans which turns into the rallying point for them. The elves shouldn't have got involved - they're supposed to be on their way out.

	05-01-2003 19:07									#32
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Theoden get's killed during the Seige of Gondor. The lead Nazgul gets him and his neice (the one who has the hots for Aragorn) ends up killing the nazgul.

	05-01-2003 19:12									#33
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My bad...I knew he got knocked off sometime.
Denethor survives though, doesn't he?

	05-01-2003 19:17									#34
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Denethor, Boromir & Faramir's father? Nope he commites suicide by burning himslef to death and he tries to take the unconcious Faramir with him but Gandolf saves Faramir.

Faramir and what's her name (Theodin's neice) end up being in the hospital together at the same time and fall in love. The two of them get married and Elrond's daughter gives up immortality to marry Aragon after he becomes king.

	05-01-2003 19:19									#35
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quote: And the 'invunerability bubble' is irritating but necessary...they already lost Boromir, to lose anyone else would be pretty bad for the story.

It wouldn't have hurt for them to fight orcs who don't just curl up and die. How about Legolas running out of arrows, or getting wounded? Why not have Gimli get his axe broken?

The thing is, they ACT as though they are invulnerable, throwing themselves at the orc army to buy time for the defenders.

	05-01-2003 19:22									#36
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In the book Gimli's axe does get damaged at Helm's deep. The blade gets nicked on an orcs armor as Gimli kills it.

	05-01-2003 19:24									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman It wouldn't have hurt for them to fight orcs who don't just curl up and die. How about Legolas running out of arrows, or getting wounded? Why not have Gimli get his axe broken?

What was Legolas fighting with for much of the battle anyway? He seemed to do all his close hand-to-hand fighting with arrows, which was somewhat weird...I mean sure, you can stick one through someone's eye, but you can hardly parry a sword with one...

	05-01-2003 19:52									#38
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The consensus among everyone who I watched it with was that it was better than FoR.

The film was much better paced than the book or indeed the first film, not significantly sagging at any point. Nor, admittedly, were there any peaks really, but still. It also built up towards the next film much better than FoR. Compared to the exquisitely boring, sprawling first film it was okay cinema.

That said, it completely lacked dramatic focus. The psychologically interesting though of course, this being Tolkien, immensely boring story of Sam and Frodo that was the dramatic focus of the book was cut down to a fraction of the size, which made sense pace-wise but not really dramaturgically. The film was also markedly non-epic, with a series of seemingly unconnected random occurences instead of a decent consistent story, and a marked sense of petty scale when, say, the ents discover the forest cut down and say, hey, let's attack the tower. No psychological movement in the side characters at all. Blame Tolkien's inability to write well, probably.

What I really,viruently hated about it, though, was that it's probably the most markedly anti-feminist film I've seen in a long time. The scene where the twelve-year old boys go out fighting while the supposedly able women take care for the ****ing kids in the ****ing cave almost had me leave the theatre.

	05-01-2003 20:01									#39
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The purpose in any society in keeping the women back is because women can reproduce. One man can fertilise many women, one woman cannot be fertilised by many men and carry all their children. In a survival situation like that, it makes sense to withhold the women. So don't you worry your sweet head about it

	05-01-2003 20:05									#40
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--"I, on the other land, love the movies."

FotR was one of the few movies I've walked out of. Taken as a fantasy movie by itself it probably wouldn't be too horrible, but with Tolkien's name on it it's a failure.

That said, I've heard all these complaints about TT and more (more people complain about the addition of the elves than like it; one of the themes of the book is that the time of the elves is ending).

--"In the first one they eliminated things from the book but they didn't just invent anything out of thin air."

Oh, yes they did. Remember the fight between Gandalf and Sauruman? I can understand why you'd want to repress it, but they certainly did add. The dumbest scenes in the movie were the ones they did.
They were also not particularly true to the book. I'm not talking about cuts, but about changes. There were plenty of them in areas that didn't need to be cut. Setting out from the Shire, Bree, meeting Aragorn, etc.

--"I must admit the 'I read the book and it was better' crowd (referring to any film) really irritate me"

Well, quite frankly, it was as far as I could stand the movie.

Of course, I've never really been fond of movie adaptations of books. There's only been a couple that have come out well. I've also been a big Tokien fan for a long time.

--"What was Legolas fighting with for much of the battle anyway?"

Can't say for the movie, but in the book he had a long knife of some sort as well.

--"Faramir and what's her name (Theodin's neice) "

Éowyn.

--"That said, it completely lacked dramatic focus."

And yet you rate it higher than the first movie? Hehe. Well.

Wraith
"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;"
-- Tolkien

	05-01-2003 20:23									#41
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 am i the only one who hasnt read the book?

No... could be worse. You could be a NEW ZEALANDER who hasn't read the book (in fact I tried, but got sick of it really early - fantasy books and I are mutually incompatible creatures), Half the sodding country was IN the movies.

	05-01-2003 20:25									#42
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I have never read the books, it means I can watch the damn film without coming here and whinging about it for endless hours afterwards

	05-01-2003 20:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed What I really,viruently hated about it, though, was that it's probably the most markedly anti-feminist film I've seen in a long time. The scene where the twelve-year old boys go out fighting while the supposedly able women take care for the ****ing kids in the ****ing cave almost had me leave the theatre.

Calm down, it's just a movie!
Why don't you start an anti-Rohirrim thread instead?
I think that was one of the funniest parts of the movie. First they show that the women are very good fighters and then they bring out the small boys instead to do the fighting!

	05-01-2003 21:20									#44
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"What I really,viruently hated about it, though, was that it's probably the most markedly anti-feminist film I've seen in a long time. The scene where the twelve-year old boys go out fighting while the supposedly able women take care for the ****ing kids in the ****ing cave almost had me leave the theatre."

Middle Earth is loosely based on Medieval Europe except fantasy-ized, and during those times women would not be fighting and 12 years olds would indeed be old enough to fight in a situation like that.

	05-01-2003 21:20									#45
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I never read the books. I read somewhere that Tolkien wasn't a good writer and that the trilogy was made up of boring novels with a sappy story despite his efforts in creating a believable and complex world.

That said, I liked the first movie (a good fantasy movie, if you ask me). I also liked TTT, but it suffers from the "middle thing" or "bridgeness" syndrome. It does not initiate the story nor does it finish it. TTT has some pretty intense moments (Gandalf fighting the Balrog while both are falling in the deep is absolutely breathtaking) but it is slightly inferior when compared to FOTR, maybe because everything is so "in the air", nothing ever seems to meet an end. I liked it, though, and I never got bored while I was watching it.

	06-01-2003 03:19									#46
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I loved TTT. I read the books many times, but not recently and was concerned that TTT would make a movie that was too gloomy and rambling. Given that, I felt the film was great and its pacing was far better than FotR. Gollum and the Balrog were incredible graphically and the pacing of the film was surprisingly good. The tie-ins to the next film were handled very well.

In general, it was an awesome effort to bring such a complex and difficult tale to the screen. You can safely bet that nobody will do a better job of making TTT into a movie.

My only complaints were:
1) I agree with Buck that the ents deciding rashly to attack Isengard was poorly handled. They should have been aware of Saruman's efforts from their communication network and their rashness is totally out of character.

2) I would have preferred that the romance be downplayed as per the book, but understand that it makes for a more popular movie. I would at least have wished that it were more subtle and less of the focus in this movie.

	06-01-2003 03:43									#47
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Phew, finally I can enter these threads too, since I just saw it too. Well.. what can I say.. it was good, no doubt about that. Still it didn't have the same grip for me like the first one did. I don't know why. Gimlis jokes were kind of.. too many. They were good, but I think it would've been better with fewer jokes. Nothing REALLY bothered me, since I didn't want to be ready to spot mistakes and directors own decisions. Good movie, liked the first one better, waiting for the last one.

My butt fell asleep, crappy seats!

	06-01-2003 03:45									#48
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Oh and I definitely agree with complaints about the ents, and destroying the Isengarden. It was... little too light.

Also what did hurt my eye was seeing Legolas doing Tony Hawk.

	06-01-2003 04:12									#49
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The tony hawk move was cool.
I liked it better than the first actually. For some bizarre reason it felt MORE epic to me. Meh.

	06-01-2003 04:27									#50
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Yes, there were definitely somwe digressions from the books in this movie. I'm wondering if Jackson is actually going to change Aragorn's fate and have him marry Eowyn? That would be blasphemy!

Overall I liked the movie. The CGI of Gollum was terrific. I wonder how long it will be before they're able to do that with any human character they desire?

Last edited by Dr Strangelove on 06-01-2003 at 06:42

	06-01-2003 04:34									#51
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well since george lucas messes it(CGI character) up at every turn i predict until his death

	06-01-2003 04:39									#52
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I liked TTT better than FOTR. In the first movie, I was removed from state of disbelief suspension several times. TTT never did this to me and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Anyway, what's so funny about tossing dwarfs? One of the must unfunny schticks to come around for a while.

	06-01-2003 05:19									#53
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how could you not find humor in tossing dwarves? its the scottish nation pasttime!

	06-01-2003 05:20									#54
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Oh yes Gollum was Beautiful!

	06-01-2003 05:54									#55
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I thought it was well-done.
From the sound of the Nazgul's wings flapping to the tramp of feet as the approach was made on Helm's Deep.

	06-01-2003 07:11									#56
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I know they had to change things and beef up certain characters whilst removing others but why oh why did they have to fiddle with Faramir?

All they did was make Faramir into a mindless automaton who isn't that likeable with their changes. In the book he is fighting between doing the right thing and doing what his father, Denethor, commands him to do. When they cut large sections of the book because the running time of the film can't be more than 3hrs or so, then to have a totally extraneous scene in Osgillath puzzles me. Dragging Frodo, Sam & Gollum into Osgillath to me smacks of them having to create the set for another point later in the film and then thinking how can we cost justify this?

Overall I thought the film was very well done for the tough film-making material it is, but the changing of some bits for dramatic effect did annoy me a lot. Apart from Faramir, the other bit was the arrival of the elfs at helms deep instead of Eomer fighting there. Eomer obviously took Erkenbrand's role when they arrived at the end of the siege.

Ah well, can't wait to see how they fit all the bits they cut from the TT book to fit into the 3rd film, e.g. Shelob's lair. I know they've decided to seriously shorten the scouring of the shire but where else they going to fiddle? Hopefully they'll still include the siege of Minas Tirith - if Helm's Deep was a big fight then Minas Tirith had anout 6 times the number of combatants, so nearly 100,000 fighting will be interesting....

	06-01-2003 07:31									#57
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I've heard a bunch of complaints about "this and that"... and my only comment is, this is the best we are going to get, and it's DAMN GOOD. So I'm willing to cut them some slack. Overall, it's been great. But people can knit pick anything to death. We should just be happy it was finally done.

	06-01-2003 07:37									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Oh yes Gollum was Beautiful!

Although Gollum was brilliantly executed and although computer-generated characters are becoming more realistic, they aren't there yet. I would have preferred a human actor, say Linda Hunt (Year of Living Dangerously, Dune and Kindergarden Cop). In a latex bodysuit with webbed hands and feet, she would have been brilliant.

Oh yeah: another vote for Fellowship over Two Towers.

	06-01-2003 07:40									#59
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As I said, I'm very happy with what they achieved and enjoyed both films immensely. it's just that even though they had to fiddle to make it fit into a mere 12 hours or less of film, you obviously can't blame 100% of the people for not being 100% happy with it. naturally some things had to go or be changed, but why the obsession with tossing dwarves?

as i said, can't wait to see Peter Jackson's implementation of 'The Return of the King' - Shelob should be quite interesting and the siege of Minas Tirith one would hope would totally outclass the spectular Helm's Deep.

	06-01-2003 09:30									#60
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It would be IMPOSSIBLE to mae a film of LoTR that stayed fuly loyal to the material. Books and Film are utterly different mediums, where the drama and suspense are built in very different ways. Yoiu can never just film a book page by page, and defenitelly not something like LoTR. For God's sake, the last half of the third books is an appendix to help you understand what the hell went on: if someone here can explain some whay in which a filmaker could somehow include the whole index into the fiolms, then perhaps you can try to make the movie.

The majority of human kind has NOT read LoTR, and they will be the ones to make the enterprise profitable. The filmaker musdt bring them into the story, and that is bound to be very difficult to do with Tolkien. There is simply too much, too much for the medium of cinema.

As a movie (without bringing the book in at all, as it is a meaningless and invariably failed thing to do) it had various issues, as I think the dramatic tension the last battle scene is broken by switching from strand to strand. I think they used the chliche of "threatened children" too much, and did not show enough of how those 12 year olds and 60 year olds conscripted to fight fared (which was probably very badly) to show the sacrifice made. Gollum was doen evry well, and from the fact that Faramir is able to resist the urge to take the One Ring, and willingly let Frodo go (thus passing the test Galandriel had to face, Brromir failed, and Aragorn has not taken) he is set up for a much more sympathetic third movie. And I think the Wringwhaiths ae too weak, as they seem utterly unable to do much: hardly the most feared henchmen of Sauron.