08-01-2003 03:27									#121
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I know all about the crossbreeding, but I'm interested in how they spawn. Do orcs come from storks?

	08-01-2003 03:29									#122
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MRT144,

I think it just generally fits in with his dislike of messing with nature.

DanS,

I think that orcs (all orcs) breed like the other races: like humans. I guess PJ had a different take on the Uruk-hai (the mudpit spawning scenes).

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 03:29									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Basically, the theme in Tolkien's work was: God (name escapes me)

Eru, perhaps?

quote: created the races through the Valar (demigods, archangels),

My impression from stuff I've read in the past (other people's comments, not the source material, which I should get sometime) is that it's a little like the Greek pantheon, where there's one god who's a little more than the others, and the Valar are all gods. The Maiar seem to get classified as demigods or (in the case of the Istari) angels.

quote: except the Dwarves, who were independently created by one of the (good) Valar, but out of love and his wish to create something (for which he was reprimanded). The forces of evil dement these creations - and of course their meddling with the original creation makes nasty looking beasts (not that they were aiming for beauty anyway). The Dwarves, apparently, came out wrong due to the one Valar's attempt to make them himself... hence they are short and kinda ugly... but because the Valar was a good guy, the Dwarves have more good qualities than bad. Melkor was one of the Valar (Morgoth became his name when he rebelled). He is Tolkien's Lucifer. He hates the races of Middle Earth and wishes to dominate them. The elves in particular, he hates. Which is why he does all sorts of nasty things to ones he captures and makes them into orcs.

A couple of Q's for stuff not really addressed in either LoTR or the appendices -- are Melkor and Morgoth one and the same, and is Morgoth just a garden variety Vala or is he more powerful? Along the same lines, it seems as though Sauron is more powerful than that average Maia.

Anyway, one reason Morgoth would hate the Elves would be that they drove him from Middle Earth.

	08-01-2003 03:34									#124
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A few things I remember:
Melkor was the name given to him by Eru; the Valar named him Morgoth (which means something close to Evil One) after he fell.
And Sauron (or Gorthaur as some call him) is pretty powerful...he was originally a Maia of Aule, smith of the gods, who was corrupted. Some of the Maiar are more powerful than him though - Melian (Queen of Doriath), Eonwe (herald to Manwe) and Olorin (who became Gandalf) are three I can think of...

	08-01-2003 03:37									#125
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Most of this comes from the Simarillion, btw. When I first tried reading it, I put it down almost immediately (the opening bit is the worst part, it gets better). But it sure helps with background... and some of the stories of the 1st Age are quite good.

Melkor = Morgoth. Same guy. He gets the new name once he rebels. Melkor is the most powerful single Vala, but not the most wise. The wiser one (forget the name) is entrusted with the most knowledge by God, and Melkor is all sorts of pissed.

The Maiar are servants of the Valar. So you can view it like you said, or you can see the Valar as demigods and the Maiar as powerful spirits or something. Doesn't really matter. Sauron is of the Maiar, and must be one of the strongest, like you say. Balrogs were Maiar (changed by Morgoth) also.

The Elves didn't drive Morgoth from Middle Earth. The Valar did. The Elves fought him over the Simarils, and thus became his main opposition until the Valar got off their collective asses and took him out (well, banished him).

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 03:40									#126
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quote: Some of the Maiar are more powerful than him though - Melian (Queen of Doriath), Eonwe (herald to Manwe) and Olorin (who became Gandalf) are three I can think of...

Agreed on the first two... not sure about the last one. Is Gandalf supposed to be more powerful than Sauron? I don't think so. Very, very powerful, but not more so than Sauron.

Aule, yeah, I think he's the guy who made the Dwarves.

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 09:51									#127
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quote: except the Dwarves, who were independently created by one of the (good) Valar, but out of love and his wish to create something (for which he was reprimanded).

The Dwarves were created by Aule, the Valar associated with mining and craftmanship.

The Ents were also made by a Valar, Vanya IIRC.

The Elves and Men were created by Illuvatar (God).

Orcs and other creatures being made by the evil Valar Melkor (Morgoth. Orcs were corrupted Elves. Trolls were supposed to be evil couterparts of the Ents.

edit: The Ents were created by Yavanna, not Vanya. I think Vanya is Manwe's wife and the Valar who created the stars.

	08-01-2003 09:56									#128
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quote: Is Gandalf supposed to be more powerful than Sauron?

As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart.

I think Sauron is clearly more powerful than Gandalf, rivaled only by the truly great Maiar like Melian.

	08-01-2003 10:11									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Craig P. In Fellowship the book, Legolas shoots one of the winged beasts out from under a Nazgūl one night along Anduin. I suspect that was the inspiration for the arrow driving it off in Two Towers the movie, and as such I don't think it's contrived at all.

The only problem with that is the beast is not shot out from under the Nazgul - as we see the Nazgul later leaving Osgiliath.

If the beast had crashed and burned, then I could of probably accepted that...

I stand by what I said before - the Ring is in the grasp of the Wraith (BTW, the ultimate goal of the Wraith is to bring the Ring back to Sauron) and he is driven off by an arrow. A little different than the river scene where the Wraith is merely patrolling and somewhat blindly seeking for the Ring.

He know the Ring is right in front of him at Osgiliath.

And given the incredible effort needed to kill some of the creatures/humans in the movie, this makes the Wraiths appear truly weak.

	08-01-2003 11:49									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart.

Also, in Fellowship the book, Galadriel laments that her suggestion that Gandalf head the white council was not heeded.

	08-01-2003 11:53									#131
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IMO, the decision to leave was not made by the Nazgūl, it was made by the beast. Yes, the beast was not killed (heck, that would not have been good for the story to have the Nazgūl running around on the ground ), Still, based on the FOTR occurrence, it's reasonable for a single arrow to seriously injure or kill one of the winged mounts, and I don't expect it would want to stick around if it was getting shot.

YMMV, of course, but I don't think the retreat of the beast can be reasonably construed as ridiculous.

	08-01-2003 12:02									#132
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I think the two towers was a great film.

And the book is not the same as the script. Even in the beginning of the film it says "The movie is based on the novel by J.R.R. Tolkien".

	08-01-2003 18:53									#133
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--"Shelob should be quite interesting"

Last I was following the movies I was under the impression that this would be either completely cut or severely trimmed.

--"Uhhh... the Ring Wraiths were unable to do much in the books as well"

Actually, they were able to do quite a bit. It was only when confronted with things like elves singing about Galadriel they had any problems. They had pretty much free reign in the human territories.

--"The movie has Helm's deep as the mountain refuge of the people of Edoras"

I don't recall the people of Edoras being moved there, just the army (in the book).

--"Tolkien creates a scene of menace without unduly stretching believability"

The Ring still gives some protection to it's bearer. It was only while wearing it that Frodo would have become more in danger rather than less.

--"Return of the King just isn't that long of a book in comparison."

Especially since they're planning on leaving out the Scouring of the Shire.

--"Like I said... Paths of the Dead is totally cut out."

Heh.

--"Without knowing more about your complaints with Fellowship,"

I'd have to go rewatch it to cataloge them again, and that's not going to happen.
But it's easy to point to an example that typified what made me leave. The whole Gandalf/Saruman bit. We start by changing the manner Gandalf leaves the Shire (incidentally changing the way Frodo does and, IIRC, cutting out the whole wait-for-the-birthday bit). Then we get several minutes of Gandalf riding a horse that could have been better spent on just about any other part of the story. Then we get Gandalf and Saruman's confrontation, which elimiantes entirely the quasi-independant nature of Saruman. Then we get the lamest magical duel to ever have been filmed, one of those horrible additions they should never have attempted. I mean, please. "Excalibur" had better spell effects, and those were all done in-camera.

This is the sort of thing that made it impossible for me to stand the movie.

--"I think the problem they were trying to approach was making the time element manageable. "

My question is, why does it have to be a trilogy of movies? Cut each book in half, it's not like there's no stopping points near the middle that would work as well as the ends. And six blockbusters would get you more profits than three.

--"and as such I don't think it's contrived at all."

Depends how it was done. For one, elves can resist the Nazgul better than humans. For another, it was the beast he was riding that was vulnerable to the arrow, not the Nazgul itself.

Wraith
"He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom."
- Gandalf

	08-01-2003 21:08									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"The movie has Helm's deep as the mountain refuge of the people of Edoras" I don't recall the people of Edoras being moved there, just the army (in the book).

In TTT the book, the people of Edoras flee to Dunharrow. However, the people of the Westfold flee to Helm's Deep, so there are still civilians there. The army rides out to attack Saruman, only to encounter men fleeing from Erkenbrand's defeat at the Ford of Isen, at which point they retreat to Helm's Deep.

quote: --"I think the problem they were trying to approach was making the time element manageable. " My question is, why does it have to be a trilogy of movies? Cut each book in half, it's not like there's no stopping points near the middle that would work as well as the ends. And six blockbusters would get you more profits than three.

You could do 20 movies and the time element in Fellowship the book would still not be manageable in movie form.

	08-01-2003 21:53									#135
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The Scouring of the Shire is a critical part of the whole story. It demonstrates that the war reaches everybody and there are no safe refuges. It's part of the reason why there is such a different tone between the light hearted Shire of the beginning and the darker human and wild lands through the rest of the book.

Tolkein intended for it, and while it may not be flashy, it was an integral part of the story. It helps to show how the hobbits have matured over the course of their quest and how they became actual heroes on par with the Big People. I can understand time constraints in movies, but the scouring is not what should be cut out.

	08-01-2003 22:08									#136
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Felch,

I agree with you, but from a movie-making standpoint, I think PJ dealt with that via Merry's little speach during the Entmoot ("There won't BE a Shire, Pippin!").

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 22:23									#137
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My main problem is that the Hobbits are just dead weight, unable to help themselves, unable to change the course of events BARELY, if at all.

I would have liked to see the Hobbits kick a little A$$, only because they have done nothing for most of the movies and hid behind bushes and such.

	08-01-2003 22:38									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Is Gandalf supposed to be more powerful than Sauron? As far as I can recall, Olorin (Gandalf) wasn't even the most powerful of the Istari. The most powerful was Curunir (Saruman). That's why he was the leader of the group, although one of the Valar noted that Gandalf had the most pure heart. I think Sauron is clearly more powerful than Gandalf, rivaled only by the truly great Maiar like Melian.

Varda doesn't agree with you When there was the great meeting of the Valar to determine who to send, Olorin came late, having just returned from a journey. Manwe asked him to go as one of the Istari and at first he declined, saying he was weak and fearful. Manwe told him that this was all the more reaon that he should go, as the third of the Istari.
"But Varda looked up at that, and said, 'Not as the third.' And Curumo remembered this."
Cirdan doesn't agree with you either. He divined in Gandalf the strongest spirit, and therefore gave to him Narya, the Red Ring.

Incurable nerd aren't I?

	08-01-2003 23:29									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Flatlander Fox My main problem is that the Hobbits are just dead weight, unable to help themselves, unable to change the course of events BARELY, if at all. I would have liked to see the Hobbits kick a little A$$, only because they have done nothing for most of the movies and hid behind bushes and such.

They're supposed to be useless. That's the whole point. Sauron is defeated by force of arms, but by the inner strength of a race of people that everyone else disregards. It's a feel good story with demons and wraiths and whatnot tossed in for flavoring.

	08-01-2003 23:34									#140
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But they aren't even getting the "inner strength" part right.

All the hobbits do is hide behind rocks, squeal in terror, and gaze around in wonder.

They were a little tougher in the books, and it's too bad that this is a movie about Aragorn and his part of the fellowship, rather than the hobbits themselves.

	08-01-2003 23:57									#141
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Yeah, I suppose. The movie really does understate important things about the hobbits. But it can't do much better of a job, or at least, I couldn't do much better of a job.

	09-01-2003 00:45									#142
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Merry and Pippin get braver (in the books) toward the end of TTT and then in RotK (where one becomes squire to Theoden and the other enters the service of Denethor). One helps Eowen take down the head Nazgul. In fact, if memory serves, one of them has a little speach about not wanting to be useless anymore.

Frodo and Sam's strength is that they keep going even though it all looks hopeless.

-Arrian

	09-01-2003 02:38									#143
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quote: "But Varda looked up at that, and said, 'Not as the third.' And Curumo remembered this." Cirdan doesn't agree with you either. He divined in Gandalf the strongest spirit, and therefore gave to him Narya, the Red Ring.

I'm well aware of this, but I don't think it indicates the Gandalf was the strongest. I think Saruman was the strongest, which is why most people and Valar chose him as a leader. Varda and Cirdan were rare characters who saw that Gandalf, despite being weaker, had the purer heart and was destined for greater things than Saruman. The passages on the Istari are all pretty vague, but this is the way I have always interpreted it.

	09-01-2003 03:12									#144
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Ah, screw it. I say tomato...
'revealed as a lord of great reverence and power' wouldn't change your mind either?
There's some of Tolkien's notes somewhere that indicated Olorin might actually be Eonwe, herald of Manwe, or even Manwe himself, you know...

	09-01-2003 03:18									#145
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quote: There's some of Tolkien's notes somewhere that indicated Olorin might actually be Eonwe, herald of Manwe, or even Manwe himself, you know...

If true, this would change everything, but I've never seen any definitive proof for this theory, just random notes by Tolkien.

There isn't really much proof for either of our views. I've just always thought that Saruman was a little more powerful, but Gandalf made up for this by being more noble and ended being the greatest of the Istari. I've always liked that interpretation, as it fits in well with the themes present in Tolkien's work.

	09-01-2003 04:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Flatlander Fox They were a little tougher in the books, and it's too bad that this is a movie about Aragorn and his part of the fellowship, rather than the hobbits themselves.

Through this point, when were they tougher?

I don't think there's really been any difference between the characterization of the hobbits in the book and the characterization onscreen to this point, in terms of toughness.

	09-01-2003 04:49									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If true, this would change everything, but I've never seen any definitive proof for this theory, just random notes by Tolkien.

Since Tolkien invented the whole of that universe I guess that random notes by him are far more valid than random guesses by anyone else.

	09-01-2003 05:14									#148
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quote: Since Tolkien invented the whole of that universe I guess that random notes by him are far more valid than random guesses by anyone else.

You're ignoring the fact that Tolkien's world evolved over decades and changed dramatically over that time. Just because Tolkien mentioned briefly that Olorin might be Eonwe or (less likely) Manwe doesn't mean that he settled upon that idea and incorporated it into his final conception of the mythology of Middle Earth. Since these ideas are only mentioned briefly and were never expanded upon, I'm inclined to believe that Tolkien decided not to use these ideas.