05-01-2003 16:32									#1
	Do you build KRC in OCC games? Inflate your Upload Space

In a thread I started in the German Civilization Webring Forum we discuss if King Richard's Crusade should be built or not.
I usually build it with some money I get from my allies. In my opinion, the Crusade helps a lot to built some city improvements and caravans and (!) wonders.
Other German OCC gamers never build it - they say, it's too soon obsolete - a waste of shields.
And there are players who build it when there are a lot of ocean fields in the city radius.
I'd like to hear the opinion of some hardcore OCC gamers.

Last edited by ramses II. on 05-01-2003 at 21:03

	05-01-2003 20:38									#2
	Re: Do you build KRC in OCC games? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ramses II. Other German OCC gamers never build it - the say, it's too soon obsolete - a waste of shields.

I'm not an OCC expert but they are correct. It was considered an option in the very early attempts at OCC but players soon realised there many better uses for six caravans. Engineering to Industrialisation is a very short window for use.

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SG(2)

	05-01-2003 20:57									#3
	Got spare money?

I concurr - absolute no brainer - Engineering is at most 5 techs away from Industrialisation at this stage of an OCC say a generous 12 turns or 240 shields a nett loss of 1 caravan!

SG[1]

	05-01-2003 21:25									#4
	Support Apolyton

I agree, despite not having OCCed much... you need to focus on the absolutely crucial stuff. Plus, by that stage of the game, you ought to be doing a lot of rush-buying, which makes the extra shield production less valuable.

Now, in a non-OCC game... I'm always glad to have it when I do get the chance to build it... but at that point of the game it always seems that there are too many other important wonders available concurrently. So, it seldom gets built.

	05-01-2003 21:44									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Add me to the list of those who would never consider building this wonder in an OCC game. Lack of shields hardly ever became a concern in my OCC games.

	05-01-2003 21:57									#6
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definitely not, extra caravans are much more useful at this point - save the money to rushbuy a factory, the only time you really need to worry about sheilds in OCC is when you start building those structural components

	06-01-2003 01:30									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

agreed, KRC expires far too quickly to be worth the six caravans.......which will bring in far more science and cash.....

i have never built it in an OCC game.....heck i rarely build it in any game......i don't think i have built it in the last two years....

though i did watch my girlfriend build it a few weeks ago

	06-01-2003 02:35									#8
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No.Since population growth is the #1 priority at that point.Pollution with KRC is just too counter productive after size 12.

	06-01-2003 19:21									#9
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Never would consider it a build in an OCC game. In fact, come to think of it, I've never built it in any game.

	06-01-2003 20:47									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I've built it in conquest games - if your tech rate is 3 or 4 turns per tech and you hold back from Industrialization, KRC can last a while. Good for cranking out units. Especially handy wonder to have on the coast, for obvious reasons. But if you had to choose between it and Mikes/Leos/Magellan/Newton... well, any of those will win out.

	06-01-2003 21:43									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Never built it in OCC. Seldom outside OCC, too.
I concur. The added shields are useless unless you want to build space parts, but by that time, the Crusade is useless too.
The only wonder I wonder whether or not I should build is United Nations. If I live near possible warmongerers, it can help but it loses a lot of caravans (plus the digression to get Communism). Sine I play ToT, I am almost always at war with somebody at the end of the game, and my fierce NONE archers from the hut I tipped a few thousand years ago doesn't defend well against bombers.

	07-01-2003 14:13									#12
	Re: Do you build KRC in OCC games? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Trying to be a little more constructive ...

quote: Originally posted by ramses II. I usually build it with some money I get from my allies. In my opinion, the Crusade helps a lot to built some city improvements and caravans and (!) wonders.

Wonder shields cost 4g/shield; improvements 2g/shield approximately the same as incrementally rushed units. By my previous arithmetic KRC will normally cost slightly more shields than it will earn (in OCC) assuming that you follow a Paulicy related tech path - even it your tech path is such that it extends the life of KRC to double what we might expect - this still yields less than double the number of shields that were expended and if as you state they were purchased wonder shields - you are still making a loss!
I suspect that this is one strategy that can never be made to pay off - but perhaps you guys play OCC very differently to us? Please enlighten us.

SG[1]

	07-01-2003 19:33									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I often get the tech for KRC from my allies when I ask them for some money. Or I find it in a hut. As I beg them regularly, I often get the tech before I have Shakespeare's, Newton's, long before industrialization. I rushbuy it with the saved money from my allies (about 2-4).
And the pollution problem: I usually bribe 1 or 2 settlers from my friendly neighbours with the money I get for caravans.

	07-01-2003 20:53									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you find Engineering in a hut then you must have the prerequisites for the advance. Once you have Engineering you are only a few stages away from Industrialisation. The caravans wasted on KRC are much better used for a useful wonder

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SG(2)

	08-01-2003 02:12									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

KRC came in useful doing OCC in GOTM23 over at CFC (is that enough acronyms in one sentence?). The start was on a two-tile island with only one other land tile. Max shields was seven, eight if you turn the second island tile into Forest but then you lose the Trade. Alliances were very hard to get as we usually found other civs after they had found and gone to war with each other (and thus demanded that we break peace with the other). I'll go back through my log to see how many caravans I got out of it, but I'm pretty sure it paid for itself several times. Yes, I did delay Indust some in order to minimize the tech path between it and Miniaturization for Offshore Platform. This is the only situation I could see KRC being useful: giving you lots of mid-game shields from ocean tiles once you have built Shakes and WLTCD to 20+.

I'd also mention that the pollution issue has been analyzed elsewhere and shown to be minimal before Indust - in fact Starlifter showed that KRC was a good deal if built early enough because of the lack of pollution problems:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...s=&threadid=765

	08-01-2003 02:29									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If you're on a one or two tile island, i would expect the polution problem to be at a minimum since most of the tiles are water

	08-01-2003 03:01									#17
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No - all pollution is minimized before Industrialization. Check Starlifters analysis, it's pretty good.

	08-01-2003 03:16									#18
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No, you're both right.

	09-01-2003 00:58									#19
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with respect to starlifter's analysis,if you put KRC in a size 20 city before Indistrialization,you will have pollution.Period.At this point an OCCer should have 1 non settler improving land.Thats it.No time for however many turns it takes a settler to clean up.Now obviously if you have a bunch of settlers or mainly water its ok.I wouldn't know where/how you could afford all settlers though.

It can be good under the right circumstances but generally speaking its a waste of resources in OCC IMO.

	09-01-2003 02:41									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You still get pollution - I know it's reduced before Industrialization, but it's there. I usually wind up dedicating a Settlers unit to cleanup work when I have KRC.

BTW... would you build it if it was 200 shields?