06-01-2003 13:05									#61
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Ned: The policies which I have been talking about are essentially what Joe Liberman has been advicating since before the first Bush tax cut. That group of Democrats believe that pay roll tax reductions are the most effective fiscal way to stimulate the economy for the reasons I outlined above..

	06-01-2003 13:16									#62
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Even if these tax cuts go primarily to the rich, they're getting screwed, anyway, so I don't see the problem.

	06-01-2003 13:43									#63
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Yeah, it's so rough making money. I envy those minimum wage slackers who pay a lower percent of tax than I do. I keep trying to trade places with them, but none of them wants to suffer the rich man's burden of making more money.

	06-01-2003 13:46									#64
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Not the point

	06-01-2003 13:54									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Ned: The policies which I have been talking about are essentially what Joe Liberman has been advicating since before the first Bush tax cut. That group of Democrats believe that pay roll tax reductions are the most effective fiscal way to stimulate the economy for the reasons I outlined above..

If one can argue one's point without injecting class warfare language into the argument, I will listen to it. Otherwise, I will simply tune out and/or will be strongly opposed to anything the speaker is saying.

As far as I can recall, Lieberman is one Democrat who is truly interested in America's welfare. I normally listen to what he has to say.

	06-01-2003 13:55									#66
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I'm for it if it cuts my taxes. otherwise

	06-01-2003 13:58									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think it is right and proper for Republicans to hammer the Democrats for being the socialists they are. They are not interested in a growing economy. They are interested in equality of results. Their methods, if ever allowed free reign, would impoverish the United States.

Right, but the happy medium must be struck.

Where would we be if the Republicans had their "Christian Corporate State"?

They're all frigging useless most of the time anyway, but Lieberman actually seems to have an idea on some thing other than "Share the Wealth".

	06-01-2003 22:27									#68
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Interesting big whigs lining up and taking their shots.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0-2003Jan5.html

Sinai and Brimmer want more stimulus. The administration is going more long-term, with Taylor defending administration policy.

	06-01-2003 22:32									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm for it if it cuts my taxes. otherwise

Here speaks the voice of the average American

	06-01-2003 23:02									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My problem with Democrats demagoguing this issue is that they are actually playing class warfare politics. . . . The Democrats in the US are Marxists.

Yes, there's class warfare going on Ned, but as usual, it the top against the bottom, not the other way around. The Republicans are the blitzkreigers of class warfare, while the Democrats prefer a more subtle method, but both are out to defend the interests of the wealthy over the working class. It's only that the Democrats realize you can only push the workers and poor so far before they say, "screw the system, those damn fool commie college kids are right!"

Marxists

The Democrats are a mixture of Keynesians with a little bit of neo-liberalism.

BTW, Marxists didn't invent class warfare. It has existed since the first man enslaved the first woman and will continue to exist as long as classes continue to exist. We just recognized that it was one of the driving forces of history and that the logic of class struggle means that one day the workin class will abolish all other classes.

This Bush tax cut is just another little skirmish in the class war, giving tax cuts to the rich and paying for it by slashing services to the poor and by borrowing money, which means that we have to pay interest to the rich, a double whammy.

Democrats are Marxists . . . that's rich.

	06-01-2003 23:16									#71
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quote: It has existed since the first man enslaved the first woman

hey, wait! oh, that's a whole different thread....

My pov on this is: as long as the government doesn't directly create manifacturing and services jobs (people oppose state ownership), I am for reducing taxes for the lower and the middle classes, so that more people enjoy that buck they're getting, and would use it for consumption. The unemployment problem remains, though, and I don't see any real solution to it.

	07-01-2003 00:32									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That group of Democrats believe that pay roll tax reductions are the most effective fiscal way to stimulate the economy for the reasons I outlined above..

But I can only fear that they would use pay roll tax reductions (as opposed to dividend tax cuts) as a campaign issue, get into power, and then enact NO tax cuts of ANY kind.

The Republicans create tax cuts that favor the rich, which I don't like, but the Democrats wouldn't cut taxes at all, which is even worse. Lesser of two evils man.

	07-01-2003 00:57									#73
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how is it the lesser of two evils? Economically speaking, wouldn't it be best to use the money that would be going to the rich in the form of tax cuts to fund the economy? Even assuming that the rich would spend the money on consumer goods, only a percentage (perhaps, 75%) would actually go back into the economy while the rest is saved. If the government spends the money, it's 100% used and more effective at getting the economy back on track.

	07-01-2003 01:38									#74
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i saw this somewhere, and i thought it might add some fuel to the fire.

Federal Tax Cuts .. In Perspective

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand. Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing -
The fifth would pay $1
The sixth would pay $3
The seventh $7
The eighth $12
The ninth $18
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

That's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20."

So now dinner for the ten only cost $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.

So the first four men were unaffected. They would still eat for free. But what about the other six-the paying customers?

How could they divvy up the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his "fair share?"

The six men realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would end up being *paid* to eat their meal.

So the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of his earlier $59.

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man.

He pointed to the tenth. "But he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man.

"Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night he didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college instructors, is how the tax system works.

The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction.

Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore.

	07-01-2003 01:41									#75
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which is why the government should not give a tax cut and instead spend the money on healthcare and public education

	07-01-2003 01:42									#76
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oh, and by the way, that scenario (while cute) is completely inaccurate. 40% of the nation doesn't (legally) pay any taxes while the richest 10% pay 60% of them? I hardly think the figures are that bloated.

	07-01-2003 01:47									#77
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The first four men (the poorest 40%) would pay a combined $15 - Lower and Middle Lower Class
The fifth would pay $9 - Upper Lower Class
The sixth would pay $11 - Lower Middle Class
The seventh $13 - Middle Middle Class
The eighth $15 - Upper Middle Class
The ninth $18 - Lower Upper Class
The tenth man (the richest 10%) would pay $23. - Middle and Upper Upper Class

Sounds closer to reality to me

	07-01-2003 01:49									#78
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"I hardly think the figures are that bloated."

It's the way things work on federal income taxes.

	07-01-2003 01:53									#79
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Even a pay roll tax would go mostly to the rich since the rich pay most of the taxes. The point is everyone should recieve an equal percentage reduction in the taxes that they did pay. Plus since every worker pays payroll taxes every worker will benifet.

As an absolute term some people will get more but as a percentage term everyone can get an equal reduction. It's very simple really.

	07-01-2003 01:57									#80
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For instance let's use some made up numbers to illistraite what I'm talking about. Let's say there are five men each of whom is in a different tax bracket. #1 pays 10% of his income in taxes, #2 pays 20%, #3 30%, #4 40%, and #5 50%. So if we cut everyone's taxes by 2% then the new brackets will be 8%, 18%, 28%, 38%, and 48%. Everyone's reduction is proportial to the tax they previously payed and so it is "fair".

	07-01-2003 02:06									#81
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Not exactly, because in that case #1 would be paying 20% less total money to taxes (from 10% to 8%), while #5 would be paying only 4% less (from 50% to 48%). Everybody has a different definition of 'fair'.

	07-01-2003 02:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by orange I hardly think the figures are that bloated.

Wrong, it's even more bloated than that. Looking at IRS figures from fiscal year 2000-2001:

The top 1% paid 37.42% of total federal income taxes.
The top 5% paid 56.47% of total federal income taxes.
The top 10% paid 67.3% of total federal income taxes.
The top 50% paid 96.1% of total federal income taxes.



Source:
00in01rt.xls

	07-01-2003 03:16									#83
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i was looking for those IRS figures, but couldn't find them on the IRS site...your file directs me to a Civfanatics zip file...uploaded by another poster no doubt...happen to know where the original can be found?

	07-01-2003 03:19									#84
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this is what bothers me most...

quote: Individual income tax [1]: 1,178,210 Corporation income tax [1]: 186,732

Corporations pay 1/6th of the taxes in terms of money than individuals in their income taxes, yet corporations are where all the money is made.

I'm hoping for more specific figures so that I can better form an opinion...but I'm not finding any on the site...

	07-01-2003 03:27									#85
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the only remotely relevant figures I got from your source, Darius, were the tax percentages...

Top 1% = 27.45%
Top 5% = 24.42%
Top 10% = 23.34%
Top 25% = 19.09%
Top 50% = 16.86%

And that tells me little, since the figures are cumulative...I don't see anything with tax bracket percentages or total taxes collected, let alone the bottom 50% (which strikes me as odd that they're only paying 4% of total income taxes...)

	07-01-2003 03:57									#86
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Orange: maybe you should look at the table two below the one you quoted?

"which strikes me as odd that they're only paying 4% of total income taxes..."

Why does the truth strike you as odd? I thought this was pretty common knowledge?

"yet corporations are where all the money is made"

How do you figure?

	07-01-2003 04:08									#87
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Thanks DanS. Didn't see that part.

The problem with the figures is that the wealthiest 10% of the nation control about 90% of the wealth...I'd like to see the figures to confirm this...but the 'strikes me as odd' part was because these figures show that the division between rich and poor in this country is larger than I had previously thought.

Note: I was not shocked that the poor were only paying a small percentage of the total income tax money. I would still expect, however, that the actual percentage of their income which is taxed is greater than 0

Does anyone have a link to the actual tax percentage brackets and/or money collected from each? (perhaps from the IRS?)

	07-01-2003 04:14									#88
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did you just edit this part in, Dan? :rubs eyes:

quote: "yet corporations are where all the money is made" How do you figure?

Um...revenues for the year 2000

quote: ExxonMobil $210,392,000,000 Wal-Mart Stores $193,295,000,000 General Motors $184,632,000,000 Ford Motor $180,598,000,000 DaimlerChrysler $150,069,000,000

...do you know any Americans making 210 trillion (er, I mean...billion! : pinky : ) at their 9 to 5?

	07-01-2003 04:18									#89
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quote: Originally posted by orange the only remotely relevant figures I got from your source, Darius, were the tax percentages... Top 1% = 27.45% Top 5% = 24.42% Top 10% = 23.34% Top 25% = 19.09% Top 50% = 16.86% And that tells me little, since the figures are cumulative...I don't see anything with tax bracket percentages or total taxes collected, let alone the bottom 50% (which strikes me as odd that they're only paying 4% of total income taxes...)

The numbers you gave are percentages of income. I listed what percentage of the total tax burden is paid by each group. The figures in question are at the bottom:

	07-01-2003 04:19									#90
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What? Corporations don't have any expenses any more?