07-01-2003 08:02									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Static23 ... Given that we've never paid back a dime Reagan borrowed,

Not quite true. Clinton finally managed to balance the budget and to begin paying off the debt that Reagan ran up.

Unfortunately, the borrow-and-spend Republicans got back into office and economic responsibility was thrown out the window to make room for more tax cuts for the weathiest Americans.

	07-01-2003 08:04									#122
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According to the people at the economist magaizine the economy is going to pull ahead by 2nd quarter of this year, with or with out Bush's 2nd millionair give away, and any effects of further tax cuts won't kick in for around one year from now plus they won't add up to much. Though the deficit created by this and previous Bush mismanagement will most definitely have an effect.

This is a conservative publication and they are adimately opposed to Bush's scheme.

	07-01-2003 08:13									#123
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Yeah I get the economist. Except this one cuz theres some mixup with my subsciption.

	07-01-2003 08:14									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Not quite true. Clinton finally managed to balance the budget and to begin paying off the debt that Reagan ran up.

, well, he got a start on the interest anyway!

quote: Unfortunately, the borrow-and-spend Republicans got back into office and economic responsibility was thrown out the window to make room for more tax cuts for the weathiest Americans.

Thanks god the adults are back in charge.

	07-01-2003 08:17									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin According to the people at the economist magaizine the economy is going to pull ahead by 2nd quarter of this year, with or with out Bush's 2nd millionair give away, and any effects of further tax cuts won't kick in for around one year from now plus they won't add up to much. Though the deficit created by this and previous Bush mismanagement will most definitely have an effect. This is a conservative publication and they are adimately opposed to Bush's scheme.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the possible war in Iraq. The Economist usually has pretty could predictions, though.

	07-01-2003 08:17									#126
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btw whats an earned income tax credit?

	07-01-2003 08:24									#127
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It's a tax credit (not a rebate but a deduction) which people get to count against the income they made that year. The benifet is that if you are borderline the tax credit may place you in a lower tax bracket and thus you might pay less in taxes.

I don't know about you but that sounds like a lot of ifs and maybes.

	07-01-2003 08:27									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia btw whats an earned income tax credit?

If you make less than a certain amount and depending on your number of dependants, you get a tax credit for working. If you pay less tax than the credit, you get the remainder as a refund. It's basically for people at the poverty level who might figure they would be better off on welfare

From the IRS website:

quote: The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), sometimes called the Earned Income Credit (EIC), is a refundable Federal income tax credit for low-income working individuals and families. Congress originally approved the tax credit legislation in 1975 in part to offset the burden of social security taxes and to provide an incentive to work. The credit reduces the amount of Federal tax owed and can result in a refund check. When the EITC exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who claim and qualify for the credit. Income and family size determine the amount of the EITC. To qualify for the credit, both the earned income and the adjusted gross income for 2002 must be less than $29,201 for a taxpayer with one qualifying child ($30,201 for married filing jointly), $33,178 for a taxpayer with more than one qualifying child ($34,178 for married filing jointly), and $11,060 for a taxpayer with no qualifying children ($12,060 for married filing jointly).

	07-01-2003 08:27									#129
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Its only credit, not real cash then, right? So if you increas that (like what Adam Smith said) then you increase the number of people who dont have to pay higher taxes, and thus are giving them a tax break. I wonder if there is any data on this.

	07-01-2003 08:35									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Its only credit, not real cash then, right? So if you increas that (like what Adam Smith said) then you increase the number of people who dont have to pay higher taxes, and thus are giving them a tax break. I wonder if there is any data on this.

It can be cash, depending on how much you pay in taxes. The point is that some of these people are at the welfare level, and they don't want them dropping out of the job market.

Increasing this is good stimulus, because these people will go out and spend the money, whereas at the higher income tax levels, these people spend what they will spend, and cutting their taxes may or may not result in higher spending. Right now they're just as likely to let it sit because interest rates are so low and the stock market so shaky.

	07-01-2003 09:25									#131
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NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks surged on Monday, bolstered by hopes the Bush administration's $600 billion economic stimulus plan can jump-start U.S. growth and help cure the market after a 3-year hangover.

President Bush is expected to announce the details of a $600 billion economic stimulus package on Tuesday that will include proposals to eliminate taxes on dividends, speed up reductions in income tax rates and allow companies to quickly write off more of their investments.

"We're seeing very constructive signs of lower tax rates and stimulus in the economy, which should help spur growth and, more importantly, spur some capital investment," said Michael Vogelzang, president of Boston Advisors, Inc."

	07-01-2003 09:58									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks surged on Monday, bolstered by hopes the Bush administration's $600 billion economic stimulus plan can jump-start U.S. growth and help cure the market after a 3-year hangover.

I hate when they call it a "hangover."

quote: President Bush is expected to announce the details of a $600 billion economic stimulus package on Tuesday that will include proposals to eliminate taxes on dividends, speed up reductions in income tax rates and allow companies to quickly write off more of their investments.

I have no problems with the first two, but the third is an accounting trick to show a profit by depreciating the investment faster than actual use. Since companies aren't investing in capital infrstructure now, they can manage the books better by not investing now and taking the write-off. With business to business prices falling, there's even more of an incentive to do this.

A tax rebate on new capital investment would be a better way to go, IMO.

	07-01-2003 10:31									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Ned NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks surged on Monday, bolstered by hopes the Bush administration's $600 billion economic stimulus plan can jump-start U.S. growth and help cure the market after a 3-year hangover.

Yeah, right!

	07-01-2003 10:32									#134
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"hmmm...buy...sell...i don't know Jon what do you think about this?"

"Well, normally I'd say sell. But you know Bush is planning to announce something about a 600 billion economic stimulus plan, so I guess I'm inclined to say buy."

"He is?!? Well no **** I'm buying! Give me a thousand shares!"

	07-01-2003 10:37									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Static23 The point is that some of these people are at the welfare level, and they don't want them dropping out of the job market.

That is exactly the point. Increasing the minimum wage crowds workers out of the labor market. Increasing the earned income tax credit is in effect a subsidy for working, which draws workers into the labor market.

quote: Originally posted by Static23 but the third is an accounting trick to show a profit by depreciating the investment faster than actual use.

Depreciation is an expense, which reduces profits. Accelerated depreciation decreases profits and hence taxes now, and increases them in the future. The total amount of tax paid remains the same, but until the future taxes are due, the company has the money in hand to do with as it pleases. For example, it could invest the money, instead of paying it to the government. This amounts to a subsidy for capital investment.

	07-01-2003 10:41									#136
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that would actually be pretty cool, getting a tax rebate for investing money...

	07-01-2003 11:00									#137
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I don't agree with the assertion that the dividend tax is double taxation. When a company makes money, its taxed... when it pays its employees salary, its taxed. Likewise with dividends. Dividends are income, income is taxed. WTF is so hard to see about this. Take away the dividend tax and you give tax free income to rich people and CEO's already making tons of money.

I think they should start a tax for buying stock. I mean, I go to McDonalds, and I pay a tax buying a damn cheeseburger, yet some corporate blowhole can buy 6 million in stock and not pay a damn cent in tax?

I read in Newsweek that the National Debt is costing us a billion dollars a week in interest, yet Bush is cutting 600 billion, more than half of which will go to 1% richest, out of a budget that is already in severe deficit?

Wake me up and tell me that this monkey isn't really our president!

	07-01-2003 11:05									#138
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Man, this country is really gonna be a shambles once the Republicans are finally thrown out.

After almost a decade of Reagan, this country never learns. It won't happen my friend.

Chegitz... like your sig says, "Corporations plus government equals fascism"... Bring democracy to business... its the only way to bring about progress and improve government for all people.

	07-01-2003 14:10									#139
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quote: Originally posted by orange quote: NEW YORK (Reuters) - Stocks surged on Monday, bolstered by hopes the Bush administration's $600 billion economic stimulus plan can jump-start U.S. growth and help cure the market after a 3-year hangover. Yeah, right!

What is wrong with that statement?

	07-01-2003 20:44									#140
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HERE is the AFL-CIO's proposal. The key points are

• One-time tax rebate to people who pay payroll tax. I have no real problem with this. It is similar to several other proposals targetted to low and middle income tax payers.
  
• Immediate financial help to states. Many of the state financial problems are due to huge increases in health care costs. It would be much better to start reforming health care than to throw more money at the problem.
  
• Invest in schools, transportation, water systems, and our industrial base. This looks like pork for union workers. Some schools could no doubt use repair. We already spend $100 bil per year on highway construction and maintenance. That's plenty enough. Water system upgrades are primarily in anticipation of tighter environmental standards. Is this the best use of our money? Investment in the industrial base is a private sector decision.
  
• Raising the minimum wage. This is poor public policy. Unions often look for a wage that is some percentage above the minimum wage. So raising the minimum wage helps raise union wages. But economic studies show that every 10 percent increase in the minimum wage (after adjusting for inflation) casues a three percent increase in unemployment among workers affected by the wage. The most recent increases in the minimum wage are probably responsible for about one half a percentage point in the current unemployment rate. Increasing the earned income tax credit would be a far better policy for increasing the incomes of low-wage workers.
  

	07-01-2003 21:17									#141
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"When a company makes money, its taxed... when it pays its employees salary, its taxed."

That's not the way it works. Employee salary is an expense to the company and therefore the company pays no income taxes on it.

	07-01-2003 21:17									#142
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I agree with those top 3 points Adam. I'm against raising the minimum wage (and considering my politics, I know that sounds weird). But I'd rather see socialized medicine and more money going to education than an increase in minimum wage. Although I'd like to see the average worker receive more money, this is the wrong way to go about doing things. The cost to businesses would rise dramatically and it would force businesses to pass the cost on to consumers, or it would increase the likelihood of more scandalous accounting procedures to increase profits. Nothing good could come with an increase in minimum wage (beyond following inflation) or the implementation of a standard living wage (which I'm against also).

According to a study in Newsweek, health care is the number one expense (beyond living expenses) among middle-income and working class people. Socialized medicine is the biggest need in this country. I'm not saying that the government should simply take the reigns from the health care industry. But I would like to see some sort of program where either the government or non-profit organizations handle the health care system in America. That would help the economy much more than any Bush pork-barrell tax giveaway to the rich.

	07-01-2003 21:19									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "When a company makes money, its taxed... when it pays its employees salary, its taxed." That's not the way it works. Employee salary is an expense to the company and therefore the company pays no income taxes on it.

Than companies should not pay income taxes on dividends... but individuals should still pay income taxes on dividends. It's my understanding that the Bush proposal eliminates any tax on dividends, period. That's wrong. Dividends are income, they need to be taxed.

	07-01-2003 21:21									#144
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"It's my understanding that the Bush proposal eliminates any tax on dividends, period."

Where did you get that understanding? A company will still pay income taxes on dividends because those dividends are distributed from profit.

	07-01-2003 21:23									#145
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Well, if you are right, and income taxes are still paid on dividends, then I agree with abolishing the tax. But I still suspect that Bush wants a complete abolishment of any tax on dividends.

	07-01-2003 21:24									#146
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It is hard to feel sorry for companies, many of whom change their address to Bermuda to escape taxes in the first place.

	07-01-2003 21:34									#147
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Sava, Reading your posts, I think you have a fundamental lack of knowledge of how corporations work and how they are taxed.

	07-01-2003 21:39									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sava, Reading your posts, I think you have a fundamental lack of knowledge of how corporations work and how they are taxed.

Duh! I'm suprised even Dan takes him seriously.

	07-01-2003 21:41									#149
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"I'm suprised even Dan takes him seriously."

Socrates was a great man.

	07-01-2003 21:43									#150
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Oh.... Good point.