07-01-2003 04:20									#91
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"do you know any Americans making 210 trillion at their 9 to 5?"



Remedial math, man. Remedial math.

	07-01-2003 04:21									#92
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That puts it very plainly.

quote: Originally posted by orange your file directs me to a Civfanatics zip file...uploaded by another poster no doubt

No it was uploaded by me. I forgot to attach the file in the post and instead of double-posting I just uploaded to the CFC upload feature and pasted the link into the post (obviously I don't have my own website).

	07-01-2003 04:21									#93
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They live for free Dan, didn't you get the memo?

	07-01-2003 04:22									#94
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "do you know any Americans making 210 trillion at their 9 to 5?" Remedial math, man. Remedial math.

	07-01-2003 04:24									#95
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what do expenses have to do with anything?

I suppose there's no purpose in saying someone makes $50,000 a year since it doesn't take expenses into account?

	07-01-2003 04:28									#96
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No, there's no purpose.

	07-01-2003 04:29									#97
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oh i see, haha, i said trillions...man this isn't a good day for my mind is it? I couldn't find the data on the chart, and now I'm putting in a few extra zeroes

I think I need a nap

	07-01-2003 04:30									#98
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i feel like Dr. Evil

	07-01-2003 04:32									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Darius871 The numbers you gave are percentages of income. I listed what percentage of the total tax burden is paid by each group. The figures in question are at the bottom:

I know they're percentages of income, that's why I posted them It was related to what I was looking for earlier.

DanS directed me to what you were talking about, but thanks for posting the screen shot anyway.

	07-01-2003 04:48									#100
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Uh, Orange, your problems go way further than adding 3 zeros. You're quoting revenues, which is roughly equivalent to total sales. From that, you have to subtract the cost of everything made/sold/what have you, including materials, labor, overhead, electricity, shipping, etc.. Then, take off taxes, interest, etc.. The most profitable corporations in the US (in absolute terms, not by margins) make in the neighbourhood of $3-5 billion per year. Take GM, for example. 2001 was a bad year for them, but in 2000 they had a profit of $4.45 billion. Considering they employ roughly 200,000 in North America alone (and huge numbers more overseas), things come a little closer to being in perspective.

	07-01-2003 04:53									#101
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My mistake, Exxon Mobil had net income of $15 billion in 2001. A little higher than what I originally posted.

	07-01-2003 04:55									#102
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Income taxes are based on income (analogous to corporate revenue)
Corporate taxes are based on profits (revenues minus expenses).
Profits are an overstatement of what corporations earn, because some of that is payment to stockholders for the capital they provide to the corportation.

	07-01-2003 05:15									#103
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hey wait a minute, i wasn't trying to make an analogy! He just questioned me saying "Corporations make a lot of money"

	07-01-2003 05:19									#104
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no harm intended.

	07-01-2003 05:40									#105
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The problem with taxing corporations is that the extra expense often gets passed on to consumers and employees..... Taxing the wealthy directly would be a better method of progressive taxation.

	07-01-2003 05:45									#106
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Bush also hasn't weighted the long term drag (by pushing up borrowing costs for everyone else) his deficit spending has on the economy. Cutting taxes is good but balancing the budget and eliminating the national debt would be a boon to everyone in the country who has a morgage or pays a credit card.

	07-01-2003 05:58									#107
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Why can't I just pay taxes on my "profits?" I assure you, I have none.

	07-01-2003 06:02									#109
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Seeing the numbers on who pays taxes -- one set of figures showed that the top 50% in terms of income paid 96% of income taxes -- one cannot significantly cut taxes unless taxes of the top 50% are cut.

	07-01-2003 06:03									#110
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Man, this country is really gonna be a shambles once the Republicans are finally thrown out.

	07-01-2003 06:03									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The problem with taxing corporations is that the extra expense often gets passed on to consumers and employees..... Taxing the wealthy directly would be a better method of progressive taxation.

Unfortunately yes It seems that if they're going to pay more, might as well not give labour a raise and charge more for the product...inflation and all that good stuff...it's just a shame that they are provided the freedom and security to make so much money and there's no way to assure that they give some of it back to pay for that freedom and security.

Oerdin - Deficit spending isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as you have a somehwat reasonable outlook that it'll jump start the economy...obviously some spending coupled with a tax cut aimed at consumers would be best and avoid putting all the eggs in one basket, though.

	07-01-2003 06:10									#112
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Che, Why isn't it Marxist to try to raise taxes on the top 50% of Americans and provide benefits for those on the bottom 50% so the outcomes are equal?

"From those according to their ability. To those according to their needs."

	07-01-2003 06:25									#113
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Marxism isn't about simple wealth re-distribution, it's about changing the relations of production. Only when the people who do the work control their work with they be able to control their lives. It's about creating democracy in all public spheres of life: work, education, civic duty, etc. . . . Which of course makes the experiments carried out in its name incredibly ironic.

	07-01-2003 06:28									#114
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OK, so HERE is the Democrats' proposal.

• extending unemployment insurance - I have no rpoblem with that; it should have been in the pipeline already
  
• $300 per person tax rebate - no real problem with this, but would have been better to increase the earned income tax credit instead
  
• one year business tax break to promote new investment - we tried this before and it doesnt make any real difference. All it does is shift things around - more investment now, less later.
  
• $31 bil to pay for homeland security, roads, and Medicare - pure pork. We have no idea how to spend the homeland security money we currently have, sure don't need another road-building program, and should fix medicare through health care reform, not by throwing more money at it.
  

	07-01-2003 06:33									#115
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i agree about the homeland security bit...it all seems to be a facade to me...what's REALLY being done about homeland security

	07-01-2003 06:48									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith While I am sympathetic to those who are unemployed, unemployment is nowhere near "rampant" in any kind of historical perspective.

Everything is relative. Unemployment is 50% higher than it was several years ago. Also, the length of unemployment is much longer than we're used to seeing (I'm led to believe four months was the previous average, and we have a million people who've already gone past their extentions, let alone the million people who's extentions ran out a week ago Saturday, with 85,000 more every week). I also understand we're back up to 400,000 new claims a week, which is what you see in recessionary times.

I realize that the Bush Administration has only had two years, but we have .2% less jobs than at the begining of the Bush Administration (which isn't to say the Bush is to blame, since President's have very little power to effect the economy).

	07-01-2003 07:34									#117
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Bush has no choice now except supply side ideologies. There is ZERO demand right now to borrow money as most economists are starting to admit that we are in a deflationary cycle. Even though real interest rates are closing in on zero or possibly negative rates, which some Fed officials have admitted to, the falling prices of business to business transactions are keeping them from borrowing capital now because they might get a better deal later.

It's a great time to buy a house or car, but not equip a factory.

Unfortunately, Bush seems to be hoping for the situation David Stockman once referred to as the "Rosy Scenario", where these supply side measures will actually work out somehow.

Stockman, if anybody remembers, was Reagan's supply- side guru Budget Director, who later admitted all the numbers were cooked and supply side didn't work.

	07-01-2003 07:38									#118
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Didn't Stockman end up in prison?

	07-01-2003 07:52									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Didn't Stockman end up in prison?

Nope. He resigned in 85 and in 86 wrote a book called "The Triumph of Politics" criticizing Reagan and supply side in general.

A very good book by the way, which I read in college and turned me down the road of Anti-Reagan. Stockman was an honest man in the end. Given that we've never paid back a dime Reagan borrowed, his criticisims are still justified today.

I think he works in the financial sector now.

	07-01-2003 07:52									#120
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Here's my predition: The Bush Plan will make it through more or less intact. Unfortunately. Maybe I should start my own political part, based on good economic policy, rather then corporate interests. It'll always be a minority, but thats OK.