 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
DeepO
|
 |
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
First of all, I, as a Voxian, will be a lot more careful when sending diplomatic messages. I have to agree that the only proper action is to move, as we were the first to say we want and give the right to explore. Indeed, as the GS diplomats have pointed out, I'm violating that here.
Maybe I can delay it a little bit, but I'm not certain if I want to wage war with GS, which will certainly happen if I keep blocking the Neck. They are powerful, and maybe our immortals are better then their WCs, but we'll need a lot of them, because most likely they will have spotted us, and can build up a defense for many turns before our immortals reach their targets.
GS says they want to trade, but they don't seem very convinced of it. They asked us a bunch of questions, but instead of answering them theirselves, they more or less sent an ultimatum that if Thadeus doesn't move, all trades are off. They have to trade with someone, so maybe there is a ot of land to eplxore on the other side of them. We do need to scout their land, no matter what.
What if Thadeus was to move? Of course, we need to take the tile back immediately, or we risk being flooded by many warriors, we saw another close, and this turn, we're seeing another 2. Those can't be allowed onto our land. But what is the consequence of moving Thadeus only for their scout Grog to pass? One of our cities isn't defended yet, don't we risk that GS backstabs us once they find it, and destroy our city? They say they want to play honorably, but we haven't heard much about it, and certainly we haven't seen much.
They are militaristic, with a team where the best strategians rule the war cabinet, which was first made clear on their own thread in the general forum (where more then a few hints at archer rushes were given), and again in last message, where they threatened to kill our "spies". Phuh. spies. Those are hard working explorers, not spies. But back to my line of thought: I know the archer rushes were more or less invented in this team, and luckily we seem far enough apart for this to be practical. But, they picked the civ with one of the best ancient UUs, most likely because archers aren't so good, but where they fail, WCs flourish. It's a good thing that the Isthmus is further protected with a few tiles of jungle that Tim just found (it seems to stretch from coast to coast), but how long will it take their workers to cut that down?
But, our immortals will certainly be feared by them. Once we get Monarchy, we can put them to good use. We already have a trading partner, so we don't need the GS per se, if they were not so good we wouldn't hesitate to attack them. Maybe, just maybe, can we trade with GS instead, and attack Civ X. But attacking they will do 
DeepO
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DeepO
|
|
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
Hmm... true FP, to some extent.
I, the wannabee Voxian, am not that convinced that we don't need to take in mind what kind of members our foes consist of. I haven't seen those mountains and forest yet, I only know the jungle, and the start of a few mountains, of which I have no idea were they lead to. I know I'm protected for the moment, but I fear those WCs, as they will be good on defense anyway. But, believing in ourselves is imperative, and maybe we choose Persia because of their traits, their UU is powerful, and not to be underestimated. Sure, it was one of the things to research first, [out of role] which I believe they either have already, or are very close at gaining[/out of role], and surely we will want to use them. The problem is of course that if we start attacking GS now, we will trigger our GA, and by the time we reach what we have explored already (where GS is not to be found), they can build some good troops.
I can imagine that GS has researched the wheel first, as they need it for their UU. If I am smart, I will have found they don't have spears yet. But then again, if I'm smart I will recognise that spears aren't the best defense against our fierce immortals, those damn WCs are. Maybe we should try to build a few horsies ourselves, to better deal with this threat, if only because they can be great for disrupting GS's economical progress.
I've just moved Thadeus onto our Isthmus, of which I know it is for this moment an unpassable barrier. I do want to get another scout onto the other side of what is already ours, but I'm hesitating. After all, 2 warriors are not to be taken lightly, but I spotted 2 of GS's warriors close, if they decide to attack Thadeus, there is no turning back, as with a bit of bad luck he will fall. With 2 warriors, there is no problem.
What is a problem is that we have no defense in our 2 cities anymore, but one of the first thing to do is build some. But, if we just build one spear to block the Isthmus, we don't need defense, and we can focus on settling new cities. The request of GS to scout our lands should therefore be ignored, even if it is not very honorable of ours... but who cares what they think of us. They won't be in a position to attack the Isthmus fast, and once they do, we should be able to more then adequately defend it. After all, it's just a few tiles away from our cities.
DeepO
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DeepO
|
|
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
I've been thinking on the barb comment of Vox. Why would they say such a thing? And how can we correlate it with our own experiences?
1. They didn't see any huts, and believe barbs to be not-present (hence no huts). So, they don't mind leaving their cities undefended, as no barb will attack them. This means they will have gotten their 4th warrior from chopping, and ceremonial burial from trade (as I can't imagine they would be researching it).
2. They saw a lot of barb camps already, perhaps 2 in short order. But, it doesn't stroke with our own experiences, and given their presumably smaller territory it would be strange. So far we haven't seen anything indicating barbs, except the presence of huts (BTW, wasn't this changed in PTW by any chance? I know that in Civ3, no barbs means no huts, but could this be changed into few huts? On al our explored land, we only found one hut, which seems less then normal (but you never know with RNGs)
Could there be another reason why Vox would say that random settings explain a lot? And if we see to our own exploration, I'd be inclined to believe it was #1: they saw no huts, and thought there were no barbs. Let's hope that those nasty barbs sack their cities soon 
DeepO
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Arrian
|
 |
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:24
|
|
If I was Vox, I definitely would not move Thadeus. He stays put, and gets reinforced when possible.
I would then concentrate on building a solid core group of cities, while trading some tech with the other civ (assuming they aren't lying... which I don't think they are) and researching IW at minimum science. Yes folks, minimum science. IW can then either be used to upgrade several warriors to Immortals and launch an attack, or as tasty trade bait.
Upon getting IW, figuring out the iron situation (do they have it, if so how long to hook it up, does it slow overall REXing to do it right away: all the stuff we've discussed with regard to horses), the next step is to decide whether or not to attack GS. Given the exploration situation, Vox will know more about GS than GS knows about Vox, granting Vox a tactical advantage. The jungle is another. However, GS's war chariots provide a mobility edge to help counter the awesome attack power of Immortals.
If I'm them, I'd hit us. I'd go for a 10-15 warrior to immortal upgrade, sacrificing research for cash. Throw in a few spearmen as cover, and charge. They can stay peaceful and trade with the other civ while hitting us. If they can conquer us, they're all set. They run the risk of a protracted war against a skilled foe, but the rewards of success are great. I'd do it.
-Arrian
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DeepO
|
|
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
But it is a risk... IW at minimal research gives 40 turns, and somewhere around 400 gold (provided they build barracks, which need to be maintained). 10 immortals in 40 turns won't be enough to fully conquer us, 12 (for which they have enough gold to upgrade warriors) might, 15 is safe, but unrealistic. The moment they cross the Isthmuss, they will be spotted, which means we(GS) have some 13 turns to weaken their stack, for which we have various opportunities (before reaching the mountains, after it for 2 turns, etc.). Those 13 turns alone would be enough to rush over 10 WCs, added to the already present defense their immortals are toast before they reach EotS (they might be able to take some border cities).
So, taking GS out is no option on their own, and once they started this, they can be garantueed to get into a long and painful war. Maybe their initial attack was enough to secure the whole continent, but by the time Vox succeeds, it will see the first galleys with settlers appearing on what they call Estonia. It is not a good strat to win, and given that there are enough intelligent members (apart from some other elements), they have to realise this too.
What is possible is that they seek an alliance, so that all of this can be speeded up. If they can send out 15 immortals 25 turns from now, we will be toast. But their own economy can't be strong enough to support this.
DeepO
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nbarclay
|
 |
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
If I'm Vox, I recognize that a major early war with GS would cause enormous damage to both teams' global standings. Plus, I definitely don't want to blow my GA. On the other hand, if GS gets knights without at least being crippled first, I'm probably toast because knowing who's on their team, they won't hesitate to use WC-to-knight upgrades to take me out. (If I play things right, I should be able to take advantage of my road network and immortals to handle a WC attack - I hope.)
There are four times when I might be able to launch an attack on GS on favorable terms:
1) Any time when I have a significant force of immortals and they are heavily invested in cities on terrain I can get my immortals to without having them attacked by WCs first. I want to control the jungles and mountains north of GS, but not at the expense of triggering a premature GA without doing major damage to GS in return.
(2) If I can use my trading partnership to get to Monarchy first, that could give me the edge I need in a GA vs. GA war, especially if the terrain keeps favoring me the way it does so far.
(3) There's a window in the early medieval era where as long as I'm ahead in tech, I'll have pikemen to defend my immortals from their WCs and they won't have knights. That would be a truly perfect situation (especially if I can get far enough ahead that they don't even have pikemen to defend against the initial attacks), but it's dangerous to count on because if GS can catch back up in research, the window may not be long enough.
(4) If I can maintain my tech lead, I can also get knights first, so I could use horseman-to-knight upgrades to attack. Although as long as they don't have knights, I might be better off sticking with a combination of immortals and pikemen for scratch-built units rather than building knights from scratch.
If I can even just seriously cripple GS, I don't have to worry so much about being destroyed by them and can then shift my focus to the other teams.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DeepO
|
|
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
If I'm Vox, I recognize that a major early war with GS would cause enormous damage to both teams' global standings. Plus, I definitely don't want to blow my GA. |
That's the whole point, I guess. We know we can't expect from our WCs to have such an advantage over them that we'll win, or at least we know that attacking will be less favourable as long as we can expand peacefully, and trade techs. But does Vox recognises this? We might need to more clearly state this in a diplomatic message to them.
Nathan, you're right in the windows of opportunity, especially #3. But that is going to be one tight window... as maybe Vox can get to pikemen first, but by the time they get some close to GS, we should have gotten it as well. They are scientific, does anyone know what tech they get when they set their research to Monotheism (was that the first in line towards education? Has anybody seen my manual? Oh well, you which I mean, the tech scientific civs get for free in the middle ages)? Do they get pikes automatically? If so, this is certainly a good option for them, by the time we would have catched up, they are knocking on our borders with pikes and immortals.
I don't especially like knights as Persia, the combination of pikes and immortals is nearly as good, and less costly (I think). Knights should be accompanied by pikes anyhow, which determine the movement rate of both...
DeepO
|
|
| |
|
|
|
nbarclay
|
|
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by DeepO
Nathan, you're right in the windows of opportunity, especially #3. But that is going to be one tight window... as maybe Vox can get to pikemen first, but by the time they get some close to GS, we should have gotten it as well. They are scientific, does anyone know what tech they get when they set their research to Monotheism (was that the first in line towards education? Has anybody seen my manual? Oh well, you which I mean, the tech scientific civs get for free in the middle ages)? Do they get pikes automatically? If so, this is certainly a good option for them, by the time we would have catched up, they are knocking on our borders with pikes and immortals.[QUOTE]
The key for #3 to work is for Vox to trade with someone GS can't. If all goes well "we" (as Vox, in keeping with the concept of this thread) have enough of a tech lead going into the middle ages that the window is a good bit wider than it would be with more even technology.
[QUOTE]I don't especially like knights as Persia, the combination of pikes and immortals is nearly as good, and less costly (I think). Knights should be accompanied by pikes anyhow, which determine the movement rate of both... |
For building from scratch, a combination of immortals and pikes gives more bang for the buck as long as you're under a government that can handle long wars. But horseman-to-knight upgrades could convert gold into additional attacking power (and power that could reach the front lines more quickly). Really, that would be more useful as an extention of window 3 (or a way to hit with more wallop at once by delaying window 3 a couple techs) than as a completely seperate strategy.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
nbarclay
|
|
Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:24
|
|
Even if GS does go straight for mapmaking, they'll have a pretty big deficit to make up by the time they make contact. And if they do that, our immortals will have completely uncontested control of the mountains and jungles to their north.
Last edited by nbarclay on 07-01-2003 at 04:05
|
|
| |
|
|
|
DeepO
|
|
supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
|
|
[Alternate reality RPG.]
Hi, I'm Eli. I'm a member of a great team, Vox, who has just run into another team GS consisting of a bunch of people who are known for precise calculations, efficient Civ-play, and their temper when it comes to Civ. Further, coincidence has it that a few of the members they refused ended up in our team, where they don't have a very active role, but I think GS thinks they'll hold grudges. I must admit, that reading some of their comments does create that image to me as well, but most of the time they'll leave general gameplay to us, the 3 more experienced PBEM players of our team.
I think, that with a little pushing, GS will come after us, no, I'm even thinking that once our two borders meet and possibly before that time GS will start a war on us. From experience, I know that wars can be good if you have other ways of getting techs, as it can mean additional territory. However, I also know that as long as you don't have those other sources for your techs, wars are a waste of time.
I see that GS is doing good, but unfortunately for them, and much to the pleasure of some of their rejected aspirant members, we ended up lucky in a strategical way. We have an easy to defend core, where, as long as galleys haven't appeared, we can put up a serious blockade. We even have a very powerful UU, which is not to be beated at the short range. On top of that, we have made contact - Lady Fortune decided we don't need to fear any attacks from our other neighbours - and can rely on them to get farther in the tech tree at minimal cost. And, what may be the beauty of this all, GS does not have access to such a trading partner (or at least that's what I'm expecting, I can't know for use).
So, how can I benefit from this position greatest? Why don't I annoy GS a little, they can't scout my land, I can see everything. I don't want a war, as it would never be a good deal for us, but if I can get GS to start a war, I know that my trading partner, and my isolated position wil mean I will get out of this fight as a winner. I don't even have to take one city of theirs, if I can just hold on to my own territory and it's easily defendable position, and let the tides break away at my borders. Once the time is ripe, I can thus start my GA (on my timing), but only once I need it. But, I won't use that GA to build up an invasion force (sure, I need ample protection), I build a tech empire, which can trade with all the nations of the world. I build a few exploring galleys, and I'll see what the rest of the world can offer me, and how much support I can buy to take on these aggresive neighbours of mine. Only then will I really have the resources to take a big piece of the cake, a piece I know I can't win on my own. GS will be a threat to my existence for as long as I live.
So, how do I get them to fight some unwinnable wars: simple, the main attack has to happen right in front of my home turf, where I can use catapults to weaken them, horseman to follow them, and immortals to take them out (once I need my GA, before that archers will have to do). Other then that, I try to set up a few annoyance patrols out there, but not too much, just enough to let them think they're seeing the beginnings of a clumsy invasion force. These are only for disturbance and annoyance, and the prime idea is they draw away some of GS forces, hopefully taking more units with them than they have costed me. Diplomatically speaking, I try to annoy them as well, by not answering immediately to deals, ignoring others, and if trades are possible pick them so that I can sell them again to my other friendly neighbour, selling GS some useless tech instead.
Finally, I start some diversion to completely provoke them. I'll post a thread on the strategy forum which many of them consider home turf. I'll ask, somewhat clumsy again, how immortals versus - oh, let's say - War Chariots fight. I know the answer of course, immortals are good on rough terrain, and they are good on defense (actually, they can't be beaten on defense, certainly when it comes to WCs which can be handled with loads of archers just as effectively). GS will maybe get the idea we are going to try to rush them, they'll prepare defensive forces (waste of resources), they'll even plan a preemptive strike. Let them come, we're more then able to hold our ground 
[/Alternate Reality RPG]
DeepO
[edited a small naming mistake. I am you, and you are us, and together we certainly get confused  ]
Last edited by DeepO on 07-01-2003 at 05:34
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
06-01-2003 07:23
Sounds good... I've been doing it for while, and will add here when I can think of it. But right now, this body needs sleep 
.
)
|