07-01-2003 19:19									#31
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Speaking of BW and the Mountains, fellas, spearmen aren't going to be totally useless to us. A fortified spear on a mountain is what, 5 defense (or is it 4.5?)?

The best tactical situation we could have is to have a couple of spearmen on a mountain, with some swords and a bunch of WCs (mountain has to be roaded, clearly), poised to hit any incoming stack. If the Voxians have to march directly past this mountain (not sure if we can set this up... have to look at screenshot again), our Swords and WCs can attack the stack, whittling it away, and end up back on the mountain, protected by the spears, which have pretty good odds vs. Immortals.

So, while in most circumstances Immortals will do horrible, unspeakable things to spearmen, the proper defensive terrain can change the equation. Further, spears upgrade to better things.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 19:22									#32
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That's they type of plan I was thinking of also if we were attacked . We can use the mountains as well as have them used agianst us.

	07-01-2003 19:42									#33
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Arrian, defense of spears is 5 when fortified on a mountain. Still, we would lose a lot of them against immortals, but at least they are somewhat cheaper (not counting upgrade possibilities of immortals)

DeepO

	07-01-2003 19:57									#34
	Got spare money?

How is it 5? I thought that mountains give a +100% defensive bonus, and fortification gives you +25%, adding to a total defense boost of 2.5 for a spearman (and hence gives you the modified defense value of 4.5). I think the bonuses are applied to the base value, not to the modified value (you add 125%, not 100% and then 25% to the modified value or the other way around).

	07-01-2003 19:59									#35
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if nothing else, it will force them to build IW and not just archers. This will delay their (possible) invasion.

more time equals more power/bigger growth for GS versus VOX

spearman-fortified-mountain =4.5defense
2+.5+2

	07-01-2003 20:01									#36
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I will take those odds, for several reasons: spearmen are cheaper than Immortals (either they have to invest 30 shields, or 10 shields + 40 gold each), we have a 4.5:4 combat advantage, AND -most importantly- we can deny them the mountains as an invasion route. Either they accept the 4.5:4 odds and attack our spearmen on mountains with their precious Immortals, or they have to stick to flat land, where we have a chance of killing them.

Some of this depends on just how far north our expansion takes us before we either 1) bump into their borders or 2) end up in a war. If the current "neck" standoff remains, then we can set up a fortress on the hill grog is standing on, stick several spearmen in there, and make it painful for them to take it. I would place a city 2 tiles away (such that the hill is w/in our borders once they expand once) so that if the fort falls, they still have to descend to flat ground to advance on our city.

By the way, is Math a prereq for Mapmaking? If so, we can add a couple of catapults (though I'm still dubious about the real usefulness of bombard units over just having more combat units).

-Arrian

edit: yeah, I think you guys are right... it's the base value that gets modified. 4.5 defense then.

	07-01-2003 21:13									#37
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Sorry... I thought foritfication gave a 50% defense bonus, not a 25%. I can't check this at work

Math is no prereq for MM, AFAIK. But, either you go for it, or you don't, building only a few catapults don't lead to anything, you need lots of them or you better don't build them at all. The reason I like them is that they are a replenishable resource: they don't need to heal after attack, and if protected adequately, you don't lose them either. And if they serve you good in attacking, they still are helpful in protecting against the counterattack (an immortal with only 3 instead of 4 hp will be much more likely to lose from a fortified spear on a hill)

DeepO

	07-01-2003 21:25									#38
	Remove this text

Yeah, fortification is only 25%. My mistake was that I modified the already modified value (2*2 = 4*1.25 = 5).

Oh, since Math isn't a prereq for MM, I would not advocate a detour to get it. I'm not sold on the usefulness of cats, particularly with a mobile UU like ours.

-Arrian

	07-01-2003 21:25									#39
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foritfication gives a 25% bonus, it was 50% in Civ1 and 2.

	07-01-2003 23:44									#40
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I checked, and Math is definitely not a prerequisite for Math Making (just in case there might still have been doubt).

Catapults' being a replenishable resource actually works a lot better against the kind of piecemeal attacks AIs launch than against the kind of massive concentration of everything available that a human player is more likely to use. When an enemy comes at you with everything he has, the battle is likely to be won or lost quickly, and that makes a unit's short-term firepower the most important consideration.

	07-01-2003 23:49									#41
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I agree.

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 00:05									#42
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Hmmm... I'm still campaigning for them, but will do so in another thread, and most likely not today. I'll get back to this.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 00:09									#43
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So what shall we research next?

Bronze Working?
Alphabet, hoping VC agrees to trade?
Or wait a turn with 100% taxes, like Nathan proposes?

	08-01-2003 00:14									#44
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I'm ok with any of those options. We're going to use some cash for unit upgrades at some point, so one turn of 100% tax isn't a bad thing. Alphabet... we're gonna need it. BW we need for spears and to get to IW.

I'd say... either 100% tax or Alphabet, just in case we can work a trade.

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 00:18									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think waiting a turn is a good idea. As I recall, Alphabet takes long enough from where we are that waiting a turn probably won't slow us down (although I don't have time to verify that), and waiting a turn may (if we're very, very lucky) be time to get an answer from Vox. If they say no, we go for Bronze and Iron as a safety precaution. If we don't get an answer, we still have a choice to make.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 00:21									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'm ok with any of those options. We're going to use some cash for unit upgrades at some point, so one turn of 100% tax isn't a bad thing. Alphabet... we're gonna need it. BW we need for spears and to get to IW.

With how much lead time we'll have on any incoming Vox attack, we can suspend research and build up gold when we see them coming. No need to stockpile gold in advance. But maintenance on our granary and some unit costs a little before we build our next city will absorb the gold in the not-too-distant future.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 00:43									#47
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Waiting: we won't lose much, if anything. We need some money for paying for units if the next 6 or 7 turns, and we need to pay the granary each turn. As a guess, alphabet will take some 6 to 8 turns to complete (depending on if Vox has it), at which time we can (nearly) spend all the cash we have now.

If you PM Vox on the deal, and at the same time offer something in game, we should be able to at least see where they are going with it. It would be a surprise if they'd offer alphabet for it, but you never know

DeepO

	08-01-2003 04:31									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It's 12:30am here and officially bedtime. I went to bed 6-8am enough in the past weeks. I edited the first post, so that it reflects the latest recommendations of our strategists. Meshelic can play the turn if he wants. The password is on the way to him by PM.

	08-01-2003 05:01									#49
	Re: Turn 27 Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Plan for the turn (edited to the newest): Movement: - Grog: If both warriors remain on the isthmus (most likely), Grog remains fortified. If one of them moves 6, Grog moves 2 at the other hill. In the unlikely event, that the isthmus will be free, Grog moves at it. - Slash moves 8 in all cases. - Hack moves S of Tim, most likely 3. - Ouch moves S of Willy, even if that means to free the mountain for him. - Crush (see below) moves 8, but we won't let him go very far. Production: EotS switches from Pyramids to Granary,which is ready next turn. Hurricane finishes Warrior ("Crush") and starts another one. No change in laborers. Science: Pottery is ready. Setting research to Bronze Working, but sliders back to 10.0.0 (no science, no luxury) for 1 turn. Worker: Finishes road at the floodplain. Moves 7. Diplomacy: We offer the team of VC The Wheel.

I'll go ahead and play the save if it's sent to me today. I have only a small question:

Offer the Voxians wheel? Are we to expect anything in return for this, ie are we offering for money or tech or are we just GIVING it to them?

That's all I need to know, thanks.

	08-01-2003 05:17									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: GIVING

becare Mesh, mistakes like these could be costly

And taking over like this can be very confusing...
If you're not sure, wait for SR to play it tomorrow (gives the diplo's some time too)

	08-01-2003 06:21									#51
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As long as the display indicates that we have not accepted their offer, you're safe. Do NOT click the Accept button. Just get The Wheel in the negotiations window, verify that we have not accepted their offer, and send.

We're trying to arrange a two-phase deal, The Wheel for Bronze Working now and Alphabet for Iron Working later. But the full complexities of that will be dealt with through private messages rather than through the in-game interface.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 06:26									#52
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Thanks for clearing that up for me Nathan!

I know I can handle it, but if you guy's would rather have Sir Ralph do the turn then that's no big deal. However, in the long run, either I or someone else will have to get used to handling the turns, since Sir Ralph may not be here all the time.

That's the only reason I was thinking of handling the save. Perhaps you'd like me to control a different one? No biggie either way.

Mesh

	08-01-2003 08:04									#53
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Surprise, surprise. I just got up to drink a bit, and the save arrived. I will play the turn.

	08-01-2003 08:11									#54
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You are right, Mesh, but like I said before, these things can be confusing.
(And I remember something from you PBEM game too )

Hi SR, not easy to sleep these hours when you're not used to it anymore. I know the feeling...

	08-01-2003 08:11									#55
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Team stats:

55 (+2) Gathering Storm
64 (+1) Demogyptica
58 (+1) Glory of War
60 (+1) Role Play
56 (+1) Vox Controli
50 (0 ) Lux Invicta
60 (+2) Legoland

Power went an edge in their favor, although we finished a warrior. They must have finished 2.

	08-01-2003 08:12									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Please go ahead and switch the worker in Hurricane to the grassland tile. I'd like to go ahead and get that taken care of, and requested it earlier, but it didn't make it into your official plan.

I'm thinking I need to add something to my diplomatic post indicating that we need a response by our next turn or we can't incorporate their answer into our tech planning.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 08:15									#57
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quote: They must have finished 2.

Could this be 1 spearman?

	08-01-2003 08:24									#58
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Rodney tried to slip through (6). Grog goes back (2) therefor. Slash moves 8. The defense line will be up next turn. Tim went 3 and so did Hack, his shadow. Willy went 2, Ouch 1 and is now south of him too. Hurricane builds Crush, who moves 8.

Pottery researched. BW could be ready in 6 turns at 90% (11 beakers/turn, making +1, playing the sliders shows, the cost is maximal 64 beakers). Setting the sliders at 10.0.0, next turn gives us 10+12=22 gold. We are rich, rich, rich, Sire! VC doesn't have Pottery. Offering The Wheel to VC. Switching EotS to Granary (1 turn). Leaving Hurricane at Warrior. Laborer switched to unshielded grassland for 1 turn.

Ok with everyone? It should... all was as expected.

	08-01-2003 08:30									#59
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The worker switch in Hurricane was not urgent yet, and in such cases I tend to do it in the last possible turn. Who knows, if we'll have to change our plan. I wouldn't have forgotten it, in no case. It wouldn't have hurt us to leave the laborer in the forest, but if you insist, ok, fine with me.

	08-01-2003 08:32									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

Can we deduce from the fact that a tech is cheaper then normal or not that VOX allready has it or doesn't have it?

nice civ2 reference