08-01-2003 08:38									#61
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Sounds okay.

If you're willing to take the time, it might be useful if you would check the number of turns (probably at relatively low slider settings) for all the techs that we could research and Vox has the prerequisites for. Any discrepancies in tech costs might provide a clue if Vox has any other techs that we don't.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 08:46									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The worker switch in Hurricane was not urgent yet, and in such cases I tend to do it in the last possible turn. Who knows, if we'll have to change our plan. I wouldn't have forgotten it, in no case. It wouldn't have hurt us to leave the laborer in the forest, but if you insist, ok, fine with me.

In the unlikely event that EotS catches disease, we might want Hurricane to switch to an irrigated fur while EotS focuses on flood plains to grow back. In the absence of any other difference, we may as well do what might be best if we get really unlucky. (Not that I've tested whether that's what we'd want to do.)

Nathan

	08-01-2003 08:55									#63
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If you're willing to take the time, it might be useful if you would check the number of turns (probably at relatively low slider settings) for all the techs that we could research and Vox has the prerequisites for. Any discrepancies in tech costs might provide a clue if Vox has any other techs that we don't.

Alphabet costs at most 120.
Warrior code costs at most 72. VC probably has it.

That and BW was all I can check (We have the prerequisite for).

	08-01-2003 08:57									#64
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Turn made and will be sent in a couple of minutes. 4 screenies today: zoom, f11, power and EotS as special candy.

	08-01-2003 09:10									#65
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Actually, we have the prerequisites for Mysticism also.

Warrior Code and Bronze Working are both cost 3, so if Bronze Working is 64 and Warrior Code is 72, that indicates that Vox does not have Warrior Code. Alphaabet is cost 5, so 120 is consistent with Vox not having that either. So they don't seem to be cleaning up on tech trades thus far.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 09:14									#66
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You are right. Mysticism costs at most 96. VC hasn't got it either, I suppose.

	08-01-2003 09:15									#67
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Turn sent, time for the diplomatic note. Screenies soon. Good night again.

	08-01-2003 09:24									#68
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Trade message sent to BetaHound, Eli, Dissident, and Jon Miller. With enough luck (and it may take a lot) one of them will get it quickly. I'll post the final text of the message (with a paragraph about the urgency of the situation added since the original draft) in the diplomatic office thread.

Nathan

	08-01-2003 09:36									#69
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Something we have overlooked in all these discussions!

If (and I do mean IF) Vox has met someone, wouldn't we meet them eventually anyway (they would be doing some exploring too, wouldn't they?!).
They should appear somewhere around neck pretty soon, don't you think?
(unless made some agreement not to travel this way, not really likely, is it..?)

	08-01-2003 09:39									#70
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quote: Trade message sent to BetaHound, Eli, Dissident, and Jon Miller.

This should be last message/proposal we send, at least for awhile.
It's starting to look like we are beggin, al they have to do is wait and we're their with another one...

Let them come to us next time.

	08-01-2003 18:26									#71
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quote: Originally posted by alva Something we have overlooked in all these discussions! If (and I do mean IF) Vox has met someone, wouldn't we meet them eventually anyway (they would be doing some exploring too, wouldn't they?!). They should appear somewhere around neck pretty soon, don't you think? (unless made some agreement not to travel this way, not really likely, is it..?)

No, Alva, this was not really overlooked. There was some discussion on how it was possible that Vox could leave both its cities undefended, when another Civ has to be close by. Further, if there is another Isthmus on the other side, how come they are not defending it, instead only focusing on us.

I see 2 possibilities for this:
- they have made a 'no trespassing' agreement, and feel very secure in leaving their cities undefended.
- they actually met over the seas, at a point where there is only a one tile sea inbetween two continents, with Vox (and us) on one side, and Civ X on the other.

In both cases, we should not expect that Civ X will appear on our borders soon, also not on the back of the Isthmus.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 19:06									#72
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They haven't met anyone. Or if they did, they haven't traded advances. The analysis of beakers needed for research has shown, that they aren't more advanced than we.

They have:
- Bronze Working (start tech)
- Masonry (start tech - we have it too)
- Ceremonial Burial (researched or from a hut - we have it too)
- possibly Iron Working (no prove for this, they may still be researching)

They have not:
- Alphabet
- The Wheel (we have it)
- Pottery (we have it)
- Warrior Code
- Mysticism
- All other techs, because they have as prerequisite one of the 5 techs above

/EDIT: added Warrior Code to the "They have not" list. I had forgotten to mention it.

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 08-01-2003 at 19:22

	08-01-2003 19:10									#73
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Fascinating. Good analysis, Sir Ralph.

You know, it does make a helluva lot more sense that they started up on the northern coast of our continent, recognized that quickly, and sent all their warriors south...as opposed to meeting a civ, making a "no exploration agreement" and sending their guys south.

Plus, you may note that in response to the question of "have you met any other civs" their answer was "we've met one other civ, yes." Yeah, US!

-Arrian

	08-01-2003 19:18									#74
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Hmmm... I don't know. Of course it could be so that they haven't met with anyone, but then without any doubt they wanted to deceive us when they said they met one other civ. I'm not certain they would want to do that... they must know we would find out rather fast.

I'm still thinking that they met someone over the sea, although I have to admit that those kind of situations are rather rare... I have not seen many 1-tile seas before. Or it should be between a continent and a tiny island.

Whatever is happening with Vox, I'd like to start collecting contact information with the other teams, so we have a better idea of who has met who.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 19:34									#75
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I think they're just bluffing.

By the way, Nathan started the analysis of beakers, I was just making my conclusions. My theory is, that we currently need 24 beakers for each research point. We have "measured":

- Bronze Working (3 points, 64 beakers - devaluated!)
- Alphabet (5 points, 120 beakers)
- Warrior Code (3 points, 72 beakers)
- Mysticism (4 points, 96 beakers)

Note, all these numbers should be read "at most". In theory, the reduced price of BW should be 62, it was just not measurable.

We know for sure (from diplo screen), that they lack:
- The Wheel
- Pottery

We know for sure, that they have:
- Bronze Working
- Masonry

There's no space for an eventual tech trading they did.

Last edited by Sir Ralph on 08-01-2003 at 19:57

	08-01-2003 19:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Plus, you may note that in response to the question of "have you met any other civs" their answer was "we've met one other civ, yes." Yeah, US!

True, they are answering correct in that one, if they have met only us and meaning that we are the contacted civ , but its very clever answer, and leads us to believe that they have met someone else. Might be just that. Or then just a bluff attempt.

	08-01-2003 20:02									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph There's no space for an eventual tech trading they did.

Call me slow, but I still don't see why there wouldn't be space for a trade. What if they traded masonry for ceremonial burial? that would give the picture you described... I think.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 20:08									#78
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Could be true, and yes, I didn't think of this. But that would mean giving away a 4-cost tech to get a 2-cost tech. It is either a research and trade agreement (like we are trying to make with them), in which case they should have traded already more, or - it's a bluff indeed. I tend to the latter.

	08-01-2003 21:28									#79
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Well... BW for CB seems like more or less a justified deal.

I'm not defending the Voxians here, but it would be stupid of them to annoy us by lying to us. I can't see the point of doing it, in fact I would consider knowing someone else something to keep secret, and not to brag with. I don't see how they can gain by saying something like that to us (clearly implying they have made contact with someone else) when it would not be true... We would be more inclined to get rid of them, which can't be good in any way.

DeepO

	08-01-2003 22:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Plus, you may note that in response to the question of "have you met any other civs" their answer was "we've met one other civ, yes." Yeah, US!

Their response was, "Regarding contact with other civilizations, yes, we have met another civilization. We are currently discussing with them similar issues as you have raised. However, they have asked that we keep their identity, and the nature of our discussions confidential. I'm sure that you, as an equally honorable civilization, can understand our position here."

This wording cannot possibly be interpreted as anything other than indicating that they've met someone else besides us - unless they're somehow counting a civ they haven't actually met in-game.

	08-01-2003 22:17									#81
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Edit: original issue already addresssed.

Another possibility, depending on who Vox met, is that they might have traded Bronze Working for Ceremonial Burial. That would be more even in terms of costs, and Bronze Working in the hands of a civ across water wouldn't be a serious threat any time soon.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 08-01-2003 at 22:23

	08-01-2003 23:37									#82
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I think I found a possible suspect for Civ X. Check your e-mail boxes for the minimap of RPG.

DeepO

	09-01-2003 00:23									#83
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Actually I think they're on another continent (just a gut feeling - I know we could be sitting on a horseshoe landmass but I don't suppose so). That is, I think we can assume it's a continent and not an island because some RP members have spoken about naming their continent... though perhaps they think of islands as continents too, as long as the landmass is big enough.

Last edited by Shiber on 09-01-2003 at 01:22

	09-01-2003 17:36									#84
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I forget to comment on the power graph, and now I don't have it in front of me. Somebody asked why Vox improved, while we built a warrior. The reason seems obvious: it has to be either 2 warriors (from each city one), or one spear. We built a warrior, and saved some cash, which would lead to a nice little bump in the good direction. Their bump needs to have been a bit bigger (about twice the size), but was offset by our gold saving. It works perfectly, and I suspect that they now have 4 warriors and 1 spear, or 6 warriors running around. The only reason we're still in front is because our treasury is bigger.

DeepO