07-01-2003 09:16									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Graag Depression is existentialist angst, there is no 'reason' for it. Weed just shows how meaningless existence is, and lets you laugh at it. Trouble is, when you ain't laughing, it ain't funny. In fact its a bit ****.

Major depression is almost certainly a physiologic disease, because it has a very high genetic factor. Environmental factors, such as drug use, can trigger episodes though.

Less severe forms of depressive like illnesss occur as a result of major stressors in people who do not have the genetic predisposition. This is called "situational depression" or adult situational adjustment disorder. Drug use can be a contributing factor in this illness too.

	07-01-2003 09:23									#62
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Quit trying to cram your morals down other people's throats AH. You are welcome to your opinions, and so is everybody else. And who knows, maybe when you experience more of life, even your opinions may change

	07-01-2003 09:25									#63
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"Did you read this thread?"

Sure. And I agree with Speer that there are highly negative social consequences to use of most drugs. That's why use is controlled.

	07-01-2003 09:25									#64
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Or at least more than Philedelphia......

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	07-01-2003 09:26									#65
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "Did you read this thread?" Sure. And I agree with Speer that there are highly negative social consequences to use of most drugs. That's why use is controlled.

Then why isn't alcohol controlled the same way?

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	07-01-2003 09:27									#66
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Because it became too ingrained in our culture.

	07-01-2003 09:29									#67
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That doesn't make it right, slavery, for instance, was ingrained in our culture. It's gone.


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	07-01-2003 09:29									#68
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That's a pretty lame analogy.

	07-01-2003 09:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's a pretty lame analogy.

So is the excuse that alcohol is ingrained in our culture.

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	07-01-2003 09:36									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Quit trying to cram your morals down other people's throats AH.

I wasn't aware that Australians had any morals...

	07-01-2003 09:39									#71
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I wasn't aware that Australians had any morals...

He's just used to having to reign in AH.

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	07-01-2003 09:40									#72
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quote: Major depression is almost certainly a physiologic disease, because it has a very high genetic factor. Environmental factors, such as drug use, can trigger episodes though. Less severe forms of depressive like illnesss occur as a result of major stressors in people who do not have the genetic predisposition. This is called "situational depression" or adult situational adjustment disorder. Drug use can be a contributing factor in this illness too.

Hmmm. Inaaresting words, but what evidence is there it is genetic? I would suggest if people with depression have depressed parents, it is more likely their environement causes the depression.

Either way, depression itself cannot be compared to a disease like flu. You don't catch it.

	07-01-2003 09:40									#73
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Not so. We tried outlawing alcohol nationwide and too many people used it to be effective. Nicotine is an open question. I would also place weed in that category.

But when the majority wants to outlaw something, it's outlawed. No more complicated than that. In my home town alcohol sale is outlawed, because the constituency for alcohol use is small. The constituency for LSD and the most harmful drugs is nill in almost all of the USA, for instance.

	07-01-2003 09:42									#74
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quote: Quit trying to cram your morals down other people's throats AH.

Huh? Didn't think he was posting?!?!

	07-01-2003 09:44									#75
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quote: But when the majority wants to outlaw something, it's outlawed.

In the case of weed, the majority want it legal.

	07-01-2003 09:48									#76
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Maybe in the UK and Australia. I don't think a majority support it in the US. I'm of two minds about it myself.

In any event, we've gone through this before. In the US, even if you legalize it, it could never be a legit business. The nicotine business has troubles being legit, for instance.

	07-01-2003 09:58									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Graag Hmmm. Inaaresting words, but what evidence is there it is genetic? I would suggest if people with depression have depressed parents, it is more likely their environement causes the depression. Either way, depression itself cannot be compared to a disease like flu. You don't catch it.

Studies have been done on identical twins seperated at birth and raised by different families. The concordance factor for the lifetime risk of major depression for the (seperated) identical twins was a phenomenal 85%. Concordance for fraternal twins and siblings was around 40%. The concordance factor for siblings raised together was only a little higher, 55%.

	07-01-2003 10:01									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Graag In the case of weed, the majority want it legal.

Consider this, if you legalize it, then why shouldn't you let corporations get a piece of the drug trade. Trust me on this, if you let the American Tobacco Co., Phillip Morris, or R.J. Reynolds get ahold of the drug trade civilization won't stand a chance.

	07-01-2003 10:02									#79
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quote: Maybe in the UK and Australia. I don't think a majority support it in the US.

Hmm, I'd be curious to see the actual figures on that.
BTW, I'm pretty sure the majority of the EU populace supports legalisation of weed.

quote: In any event, we've gone through this before. In the US, even if you legalize it, it could never be a legit business. The nicotine business has troubles being legit, for instance.

What do you mean by that about the nicotine business?
And anyway, its not the business I'm worried about, it's locking up tokers that bothers me. I just want to smoke without worrying about the law. Can really ruin a good high

	07-01-2003 10:07									#80
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quote: Studies have been done on identical twins seperated at birth and raised by different families. The concordance factor for the lifetime risk of major depression for the (seperated) identical twins was a phenomenal 85%. Concordance for fraternal twins and siblings was around 40%. The concordance factor for siblings raised together was only a little higher, 55%.

Wow. Impressive figures. Question 1: what is concordense?
Question 2: How many children raised by foster parents are depressed anyway?

quote: Consider this, if you legalize it, then why shouldn't you let corporations get a piece of the drug trade. Trust me on this, if you let the American Tobacco Co., Phillip Morris, or R.J. Reynolds get ahold of the drug trade civilization won't stand a chance.

Fair point, perhaps civilisation needs it. Drug use (or rather, abuse) is slowly increasing year on year, back as far records start. Something has to give eventually, perhaps Mr Morris should just speed up the inevitibale.

	07-01-2003 10:09									#81
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"I just want to smoke without worrying about the law."

If only it were so simple. The trial lawyers would have a field day with inherently dangerous products such as weed, just as they are doing with tobacco. And this is right, since I don't feel it necessary to pay for the evils that your high creates. Fvck that.

	07-01-2003 10:13									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Graag Question 2: How many children raised by foster parents are depressed anyway?

Not relevant, seeing as how the concordance rate dropped so severely between identical twins and siblings. Since both sets were raised by foster parents, no control group is necessary, since the only variable is their genetics.

	07-01-2003 10:18									#83
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quote: If only it were so simple. The trial lawyers would have a field day with inherently dangerous products such as weed, just as they are doing with tobacco.

Hmm, what about booze? And really I think this arguement is bunk. There must be a way sell it without fear of lawsuits, cigs are still on sale you notice

quote: And this is right, since I don't feel it necessary to pay for the evils that your high creates. Fvck that.

Eh? How are you paying? If it was legalised, the tax would be astronomical at anyway.

Loinburger, apologies, but you'll have to answer question 1 and explain the whole concordance thing and first, I'm still confused.

	07-01-2003 10:23									#84
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"There must be a way sell it without fear of lawsuits, cigs are still on sale you notice"

For the moment. I don't see how it can continue.

"Hmm, what about booze?"

I don't think anybody has had success showing that it's an inherently dangerous product. Maybe they will in the future.

"How are you paying?"

By all these depressives around. The fact is that if you screw up your mind or body, I will end up paying for it.

	07-01-2003 10:26									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Graag Loinburger, apologies, but you'll have to answer question 1 and explain the whole concordance thing and first, I'm still confused.

It means (among other things, but I'm just giving you the most relevant definition), "Genetics. The presence of a given trait in both members of a pair of twins." In other words, with an 85% concordance rate in identical twins, if one twin suffered from depression then there would be an 85% chance that the other would (eventually) suffer from depression. For siblings and fraternal twins (siblings are genetically equivalent to fraternal twins), if one sibling suffered from depression, then there would be a 40% chance that the other would (eventually) suffer from depression.

Since the twins/siblings were separated at birth, they would not be under identical environmental influences (other than the common factor that they're both in foster homes), so while it's possible that the test subjects were suffering from environmental depression and not genetic depression this would not account for the dramatic increase in the concordance of identical twins over the concordance of siblings, i.e. if 20% of all test subjects suffered from environmental depression then this would still mean that the identical twins (who are much more similar genetically than siblings) had a 40% concordance increase (which can only be attributed to genetics, since that is the only variable). The reason (I assume) that concordance is higher in non-separated siblings than in separated sibligs is that having a sibling suffer from depression adds a severe stressor to the life of the sibling who is not suffering, which can either trigger genetic depression or which can cause environmental depression.

	07-01-2003 10:28									#86
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quote: For the moment. I don't see how it can continue.

Ain't gonna happen. If tobbaco is driven underground, all hell will break loose. The day the legal suppliers pull out of the market, america will burn. Never underestimate the anger and pain of withdrawl, especially on a mass level.

quote: I don't think anybody has had success showing that it's an inherently dangerous product. Maybe they will in the future.

No sh*t.

quote: The fact is that if you screw up your mind or body, I will end up paying for it.

Hmm, better ban all forms of adventure sport, driving and leaving your home. All high-risk activites you know.

	07-01-2003 10:28									#87
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don't hold your breath for a ban on Cigarettes, Dan...

	07-01-2003 10:30									#88
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If I understood what you said Loinburger, that doesn't in any way prove depression is genetic.

	07-01-2003 10:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Graag If I understood what you said Loinburger, that doesn't in any way prove depression is genetic.

The only variable between the two sets of test cases is genetic, i.e. the pairs with the more similar genetics had (dramatically) higher concordances, ergo depression must involve genetic factors. There is no other explanation for the increase in concordances for identical twins.

	07-01-2003 10:37									#90
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Perhaps it is genetic then
The only other explanation I could offer is identical twins are depressed because they are seperated, and they should be together. That, or they have some sort of mind-link, so one's depression affects the other.
But I conceed, the evidence does strongly suggest depression is genetic. Whaddya know!