09-01-2003 21:48									#1
	Westerners as human shields in Iraq Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Westerners plan to be human shields in Iraq in case of a war. The news article talks about a 21 year old Brit. There is also a picture of a 5-year old British kid greeting Saddam in Iraq. The boy is supposedly also a human shield. Is this abusing+++ kids?

I think an American is behind this. I heard the web adress on the radio today, but don't remember the exact name. Uk service something.

The American got 200 other Americans with him and it seems like Brits will join.

Is this despicable? Will it prevent an eventual war?

PS If someone else posted this I am sorry. Didn't see anything on the 1st page.

	09-01-2003 21:49									#2
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2246438.stm

	09-01-2003 21:51									#3
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Genius idea, because we all know cruise missiles take the time to check passports and nation of origin before killing you......

	09-01-2003 21:55									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E The American got 200 other Americans with him and it seems like Brits will join.

Where ever they are should be the first targets hit if possible. If they can get some French to join in as well, so much the better.

	09-01-2003 21:55									#5
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And then there's also this...

quote: Greece Launches EU Peace Mission on Iraq Wed Jan 8, 4:31 PM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Brian Williams and Nadim Ladki ATHENS/BAGHDAD (Reuters) - European Union (news - web sites) president Greece said on Wednesday it would lead an EU mission to Arab states in a bid to avert war in Iraq, as Washington and London beefed up firepower in the Gulf region. Reuters Photo AP Photo Slideshow: Iraq and Saddam Hussein Blair Reiterates Strong Stance Against Iraq (AP Video) Iraq: U.S. Preparing a 'Devastating' War (AP Video) Iraq Denies 'Gaps' in Its Weapons Report (AP Video) Iraq Accuses Inspectors Of Spying (Reuters Video) U.N. arms inspectors are expected to report on Thursday that Iraq has still failed to answer key questions, providing possible fresh ammunition for Washington's case for war. The Greek announcement surprised other EU members whose attitudes to attacking Iraq vary widely, ranging from staunch British support for U.S. hard-line policy on Baghdad to Germany's refusal to get involved in combat. The trip was timed to start around late January when the U.N. Security Council holds a meeting on Iraq that is increasingly seen as possible showdown time for war. There was no immediate response to the Greek initiative in Washington but in London a Foreign Office official said any effort to get Iraq to honor U.N. resolutions was welcome. "On the trip we want to see if we can have a positive development on Iraq," Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou told Reuters TV, adding he would urge Arab nations to play a bigger role in mediating between the United States and Iraq. "As EU president we have decided we cannot just wait for things to happen," a close Papandreou aide told Reuters. A Foreign Ministry official said the mission was likely to be in late January or early February and would take in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Egypt and Saudi Arabia as well as meetings with Palestinian and Israeli officials. It was unclear whether the planned timing of the EU mission suggested Athens had information that Washington would avoid military action against Baghdad before then. ALL EYES ON U.N. REPORT U.N. experts said on the eve of the report to the United Nations (news - web sites) Security Council that Iraq had not cleared up issues about biological and chemical programs, including 6,000 missing poison gas bombs. Hans Blix, in charge of chemical, biological and ballistic arms inspections, and International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohamed ElBaradei have made clear their teams have not been in Iraq long enough to uncover any weapons of mass destruction. Washington and London say they have intelligence Iraq has such weapons and have threatened war unless Iraq comes clean. Iraq denies having any nuclear, biological or chemical arms. A fuller report by Blix and ElBaradei on January 27 is widely seen as a possible trigger for war if Iraq fails to satisfy the weapons inspectors. But diplomats say that report may not include any dramatic disclosures either. The United States and Britain have already said there are holes in Iraq's arms declaration to the United Nations in December, and Washington has gone further in saying the gaps put Baghdad in material breach of U.N. resolutions. Other countries, especially in the Muslim world, have opposed any military action unless hard evidence emerges that Iraq has banned weapons. SADDAM STILL DEFIANT Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) fired another defiant salvo of words at Washington on Wednesday. The United States had superiority in the air but in face-to-face fighting the American GI's 21st-century kit would count for nothing, he said. Amid tight Iraqi food rations however, supplying the troops with food could be a real concern, Saddam was quoted as saying by Iraqi television. "It is enough to have grenades, launchers, a loaf of bread, a drink of water and a rifle. Then, counting on God, Iraq will be safe...unless the fighter says he has no bread or no water to drink," Saddam said. U.S. Army General Tommy Franks, who would lead any American war against Iraq, briefed President Bush (news - web sites) and his national security team on Wednesday as the U.S. and British military build-up in the Gulf region gathered pace. The Pentagon (news - web sites) is pouring warplanes, ships and thousands of troops into the region. It plans to double the 60,000 already there and is sending war planners to a base in Qatar. U.N. inspectors, backed by a tough Security Council resolution passed in November, searched at least eight sites in Iraq on Wednesday, upping the tempo of their inspections.

	09-01-2003 21:57									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild Genius idea, because we all know cruise missiles take the time to check passports and nation of origin before killing you......

I never knew that.

But I guess the dummies doing this are at least going to remove their genes from the pool.

	09-01-2003 21:59									#7
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That's not the first time something like this is being planned and done BTW.

When NATO bombed targets in Serbia, human shields were formed on bridges etc all wearing a t-shirt with a target drawn on it.


The media were filming the whole thing.

	09-01-2003 21:59									#8
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Using children. Yepper. Saddam backers.

	09-01-2003 22:08									#9
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Well they are not Saddam backers, but merely to fundamentalist pacifists... now all they should do instead is go around and make political campaigns for some more peace loving MP's (or for better sentors and congressmen) and such, however a holiday in Iraq is easier. One thing is for sure, they'll be sorry after the first missile lands for those who stay alive and injured.

It's no good being fundamentalist not even a pacifist.

	09-01-2003 22:13									#10
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave One thing is for sure, they'll be sorry after the first missile lands for those who stay alive and injured.

That's why the building they are serving as a shield for should be the first to be hit.

	09-01-2003 22:16									#11
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Would Bush kill Americans?

He would be persona non grata politically in the USA, if he did that.

	09-01-2003 22:25									#12
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If they act like more American Taliban, guess what? You're wrong.

	09-01-2003 22:28									#13
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John Walker got off "easy".

	09-01-2003 22:32									#14
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Yes, he did.

	09-01-2003 23:41									#15
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well if he wants to go out there and get himself killed, then it's his own problem. involing children is and would be utterly disgusting though.

	09-01-2003 23:49									#16
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The picture of the five-year old is from 1991. Can you people read?

Those people are f*ck*ng brave. They're putting their lives on the line for what they believe in. How many here can say the same? I think it's misguided, but maybe if more people were like them, there wouldn't be any more wars.

	10-01-2003 00:00									#17
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quote: Those people are f*ck*ng brave.

yes.

quote: They're putting their lives on the line for what they believe in.

yes.

quote: How many here can say the same?

no

quote: I think it's misguided,

yes

quote: but maybe if more people were like them, there wouldn't be any more wars.

no.

	10-01-2003 00:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The picture of the five-year old is from 1991. Can you people read? Those people are f*ck*ng brave. They're putting their lives on the line for what they believe in. How many here can say the same? I think it's misguided, but maybe if more people were like them, there wouldn't be any more wars.

i think what they believe in is incredibly stupid. i wouldn't sacrifice myself for something so stupid.

tienemen square, now that was bravery. AND it was people IN A SOCIETY resisting, not people from HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD resisting something that started NEXT DOOR TO THEM by going to THE MIDDLE OF IRAQISTAN

plus, if they think they're going to make a difference, they're morons.

lets see though che, what do i believe in that i am willing to die for... i believe in equality of all people, political, social, and economical. if my death could some how serve to either create, sustain, or enhanse such a society, i'd gladly step up, and i'd hope every citizen in such a society to have a similiar mindset.

	10-01-2003 00:04									#19
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Good on them. All I see is the sabre rattling of the west, itching to bomb Iraq into oblivion once more, and yet there is still no evidence of any weapons of mass destruction. Look, if the UN won't find them on the ground, the Air Forces of the west aren't going to find them in a f**king plane! It just takes the piss.

	10-01-2003 00:14									#20
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I see this the same way Azazel does.

It's better than just whining about it, I'll say that: they've got balls (they've really got balls if they stick it out if a war does get underway and they start to get killed).

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 00:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX tienemen square, now that was bravery. AND it was people IN A SOCIETY resisting, not people from HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD resisting something that started NEXT DOOR TO THEM by going to THE MIDDLE OF IRAQISTAN lets see though che, what do i believe in that i am willing to die for... i believe in equality of all people, political, social, and economical. if my death could some how serve to either create, sustain, or enhanse such a society, i'd gladly step up, and i'd hope every citizen in such a society to have a similiar mindset.

First off, I'm willing to be these are religious people, so the probablity of their demise doesn't make their sacrifice as meaninless to them as it would to you or me. Since I know there's no afterlife, I would want my death to produce tangible results, I'd want to know it would actually help. Personally I think it's adventurism, but that doesn't mean it should be respected. They are will to die to protect others, and there's nothing nobler than that.

Second, it's well known that the deaths of others means nothing to our goverment. Civilians in Yugoslavia tried to act as human shields for their bridges and factories, and they were bombed and unmorned by the West. These people are hoping that the higher value that Westerners have on Westerners' lives will somehow either deter our governments from acting or inspire others in the West to stand up and resist our governments.

And I don't think that the students in Tienemen were all that brave, given that they were children of the elite. They though the state wouldn't hurt them, they were too well-connected. It's the workers of China who laid it on the line and paid for it in spades. It wasn't a student who stood in front of a tank, it was a daily worker. Most o the people executed following the massacre were workers, again, unmourned by the West.

	10-01-2003 00:18									#22
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quote: Most o the people executed following the massacre were workers, again, unmourned by the West.

How do you support that statement given all fo the bad press the regime has recieved as a result of the massacre?

	10-01-2003 00:20									#23
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quote: again, unmourned by the West.

I don't know about the rest of you assertions with respect to Tiennemen Square, but this one I think is unfair, Che.

A lot of people remmember what happened and believe me, the image of that guy (lowly worker, you say) standing in front of a column of Tanks is not one I will ever forget. If he was executed, I do indeed mourn for him.

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 02:42									#24
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Hmmm, you would mourn about the poor chinese under their brutal dictatorship which is what the US policy is at too
but would you mourn about the dead children in Cambodia killed by your bombs? Or those in Afganistan?

Selective mourning is hypocricy especially if it fits all too well at your government's policies.

	10-01-2003 03:07									#25
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I would mourn innocents killed by bombing anywhere. Who said anything about "selective mourning?"

-Arrian

	10-01-2003 05:21									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E Would Bush kill Americans? He would be persona non grata politically in the USA, if he did that.

Om Sept 11, Bush issued orders to shoot down the last of the four hijacked jets (the one the passengers fought back on and caused to crash) if necessary to prevent it from reaching a target. He got mostly praise here for that command decision. You just have no idea what you are dealing with in regard to USA resolve.

	10-01-2003 05:52									#27
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Hundrends of Europeans (mostly Italians) did that last spring, in Palestine, to protect Arafat and Palestinian hospitals against the Israeli aggression. Their presence and witnessing was critical for saving many lives. The Palestinians said that they were deeply obliged to them for that service.

Hundrends of westerners (mostly Spanish and Americans) are also present in Chiapas, witnessing the paramilitary violence against the indian communities nad trying to thwart it where they can. They are welcomed by the Indians.

So why not go to Iraq and camp inside schools, water and sewage plants, hospitals, e.t.c.? If that will help save the infrastructure and many Iraqi lives, why not? The only problem I see is that the Americans are such cowards that they fight from a distance, using bombs and planes, unlike the IDF or the paramilitaries...

	10-01-2003 06:02									#28
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why risk american lives when it is not required?

sorry if we dont go marching to our deaths like you "brave" europeans

	10-01-2003 06:16									#29
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The way I see this is that these people are against war in general.. and they want publicity, and this is a stunt, but with a great price.
I think they are brave, but little stupid.
No, it won't stop war, it won't even slow it down, and they will get killed and it's their own fault. But still I think they're quite brave, and at least they're ready to die for something they believe in.. even if other people won't give them credit for it.

	10-01-2003 06:21									#30
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Plus I don't see what the problem would be at all. I'd give good personal warning to my citizens that bombs are on the way, get the hell out. If they wanna die, then sure. I don't think it's any worse, innocent civilians ARE going to die anyway, what's a few youngsters in it anyway. Sure they get few headlines maybe, but that's all there is to it, innocents are innocents no matter what nationality, and if they WANT to be innocent victims, then they're not victims but on a suicide mission. And it's their own fault. Local civilians won't have the chance to flee maybe, and they'll die because they happen to live there. Now that's tough. If someone spends money to go and die there, why couldn't he just save little bit more money and try to bring people from there to his home, thus actually saving lives than just adding to the inevitable body count. He could still protest, and if he gest few families out from the danger zones back to his country and home, I'll bet he gets even more headlines and encourages maybe just few people to do the same.