10-01-2003 08:27									#1
	How will GalCiv react to the Moo3 delays? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Enough softball stuff. Y'all are at Poly now!

What I wonder is how the Moo3 delays will impact Galciv. Better, worse? More buzz for the genre? OR dividing a small pie? And does GalCiv have any chance to beat Moo3 onto the shelves?

Unrelated...but also with a business slant: Does having Civilizations in your name give you any copyright problems? I thought CTP had to go to court to win even a one time mention of civ in their title...

	10-01-2003 09:44									#2
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* MarkG thinks "Civilization" is different from "Civilizations"
plus, the Galactic Civilizations names has been around for ages(since 1993!)

also, since you mentioned the word "shelves", one should take into consideration that Stardock is also selling the game by themselves over the net, giving them an extra advantage over the classic model of retail....

	10-01-2003 09:56									#3
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Well...I'm not sure what all the legalities are with that word. Just putting an s on it is enoiugh?

	10-01-2003 10:38									#4
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The way its looking now, they'll be out at almost the same time. Though the GalCiv release is still subject to change. If they're released at the same time, GalCiv will be buried unfortunately. They've got many good ideas, a years worth of updates and features, and the ability for the player to add diplomatic options. I'm buying both, but I don't think GalCiv should be put out in the same month as Moo3.

	10-01-2003 11:11									#5
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Moo3 will have a lot more PR (though IIRC I think it's set to come out at the end of feb, while GalCiv will be out in the middle of Feb) There's also Starships Unlimited: Divided Galaxies, that was recently released in stores, which might affect sales somewhat (how is it, anyways - anyone know?)

GalCiv might have a slight advantage in having been released via the drengin network and seperately, as many eager players may have already bought Gal Civ, and therefore be a little worn out by the time Moo3 is released (I know I'll likely wait a month or two before purchaning MOO3 unless it gets rave reviews as I dont want to grow tired of space games too quickly)

Galciv, however, will no doubt not do as well as Moo3 - such are the realities of life.

	10-01-2003 21:56									#6
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Actually GalCiv will be at retail just like other games. We'll have it available electronically in addition for those people who want the ultimate impulse buy.

As for trademark legalities, we've been using the name Galactic Civilizations for a decade. GalCiv 1 for OS/2 was available at retail 10 years ago. So if someone had a problem with the name, they would be hard pressed to give us grief now.

Regarding MOO 3's release date. The current rumor is that they may come out on February 25 which is the same day we are scheduled to come out on.

That puts us in an awkward position because let's face it, MOO3 has had three years of marketing behind it and is the sequel to classic series. I played MOO2 in the delivery room for the birth of my first son (no joke). That's why I know MOO2 came out in October of 1996. ;-)

We don't want to come out on the same day as MOO 3. Most people can't afford to buy 2 games at the same time. So then the question comes, do we move the release UP or do we push it back.

If we push it back a couple of weeks that would give us more marketing time, more pre-orders and we could add more features to the game.

But nothing's been decided yet. Afterall, imagine if we delayed the game a few weeks and then MOO 3 got delayed again. It was originally supposed to come out a year ago so there's always the chance it'll get pushed back further.

	10-01-2003 22:35									#7
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great answer, Brad.

	11-01-2003 01:53									#8
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I think it would be smart to have it out before Moo3, so you could give all the people who are waiting for Moo3 something to satisfy their 4x-addiction the few more month until Moo3 is finally released.

If it was already out I would go and buy it. If it comes out after or only few days before Moo3 and Moo3 is as good as I expect it to be, GalCiv would it have very hard to be bought by me. At least not short after the Moo3-release, maybe a year or severeal month later.

Last edited by AIL on 11-01-2003 at 02:24

	11-01-2003 03:05									#9
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Can you still get the beta?

	11-01-2003 04:31									#10
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I dont think MOO3 PR is a force to be reckoned with.

	11-01-2003 04:48									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Draginol Actually GalCiv will be at retail just like other games. We'll have it available electronically in addition for those people who want the ultimate impulse buy.

Well, thats what I meant, and that the electronic availability might get a few players who were gunna get MOO3, but didn't want to wait for it (although I doubt this is a significant number).

As to MOO3s release, given the number of delays, theres always the possibility that it will be delayed further.

However, MOO3 will almost undoubtably have better coverage, more availability (at least retail-wise), more copies in stores, and better locations in stores than GalCiv will have - and that will undoubtably have a big effect on how well the game sells (just look at the, apparently horrible launch of Europa 1400 - I cant find it retail anywhere. )

	11-01-2003 08:18									#12
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Maybe MoO 3 has 3 years of marketing, but the PR engine has been FUBARing. Besides, 3 years is a long time to wait and MoO 3 already got the vapourware label - justified, IMO.

	11-01-2003 08:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Maybe MoO 3 has 3 years of marketing, but the PR engine has been FUBARing. Besides, 3 years is a long time to wait and MoO 3 already got the vapourware label - justified, IMO.

IIRC, there have been other games that have been 3+ years in the making and were released, IIRC. (for some reason, I seem to remember some game taking 5 or 6 yeasrs to get released...)

However, I don't see MOO 3 doing too badly, based on the PR I'm seeing in stores (ie, Get a free copy of Mechwarrior 3 if you preorder MOO3, etc)

(Of course, even though Galciv 3 probably won't do as well as MOO3, Moo3 probably has to sell more copies to be considered a success and make a profit, particularily after 3 years of production costs)

	11-01-2003 13:21									#14
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quote: I dont think MOO3 PR is a force to be reckoned with.

It would be a pity to lose sales because of MoO3. You would probably benefit from an earlier release IF you had some announcement PR because people pissed by MOO3 delays would buy the available title.
As for myself, I think I'll probably buy GalCiv before MOO3 anyway since I'll only get MOO3 if I see some good reviews here and if the tactical RT combat doesn't look like it could turn me off.

	11-01-2003 21:09									#15
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From what I know of the two games so far, I would have to say that Galciv looks like the best game. MoO will do better saleswise however. As Brad said himself: They have three years of marketing, and being the follow-up on a classic going for them.

UR: I agree that the marketing of MoO has been FUBARed, but this, i believe, is an instance of bad PR being better than no PR.

I too have seen threads like "What are you going to spend your MoO3 money on?" and such, but I'll bet you that in the end 90% of those people end up buying MoO3 after all.

That said and done, I'll just add: Go Galciv, Go Galciv, Go Galciv

Allthough I'll probably end up buying both, as I'm one of the people who can afford it.

Asmodean

	11-01-2003 21:15									#16
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Can you still get the beta version of GalCiv?

	12-01-2003 00:13									#17
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We've been torturing ourselves on that very issue: Would you be better off releasing BEFORE MOO3 or releasing AFTER MOO3.

Release before MOO 3 and you get people giving MOO 3 the benefit of the doubt. We've seen that in our own beta program who haven't even played MOO 3 in beta. Any imagined short coming in our game surely won't exist in MOO 3 which will "kick our ass" (as one MOO 3 fan put it).

Of course, coming out AFTER MOO 3 (or trying to) has its own risks. Could end up delaying GalCiv only to have MOO 3 get delayed again.

MOO 3's marketing has been pretty strong.

Consider this: It's gotten previews in every game magazine and webzine. I've personally visited many of the game magazines/webzines and demoed the game to them various times in the past year. By comparison, we've gotten very little coverage.

Clearly they're doing something right to get all that coverage.

As a gamer, I want MOO 3 to be really good. I've been looking forward to MOO 3 for a long time. Obviously it would be ideal if they weren't coming out so close to one another.

	12-01-2003 00:19									#18
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As a competitor, you should hope for problems with Moo3.

	12-01-2003 00:29									#19
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Gee, GP, I think Mark got your number when he thought you were out on a trolling spree.

Competitor or not, of course Stardock should hope for Moo3 to be a huge hit - the additional interest in the TBS 4x space format is guaranteed to trickle down to quality offerings like GalCiv if it does. That effect will far outweight any competitive crowding out that may happen.

It's not like any of these games are going head to head with Warcraft III, after all.

	12-01-2003 02:14									#20
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Before or after, that is a hard question indeed.
It all depends on the amount of PR you can get...

	12-01-2003 14:36									#21
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quote: Originally posted by moomin Gee, GP, I think Mark got your number when he thought you were out on a trolling spree. Competitor or not, of course Stardock should hope for Moo3 to be a huge hit - the additional interest in the TBS 4x space format is guaranteed to trickle down to quality offerings like GalCiv if it does. That effect will far outweight any competitive crowding out that may happen. It's not like any of these games are going head to head with Warcraft III, after all.

1. I troll a little...but it is all in fun. I wasn't really trolling there. Just being smartassed.

2. I'm more interested in the game development than the games...at times.

3. Brad already gave a cogent explanation for why Moo3 hurts GalCIv rather than helping it. Pie division is more important than pie growing--the products are more substitutes than complements.* Sure they have characteristics of being each. But the substitute dimension is more important than the complement one.

4. Of course our interests as gamers are not exactly aligned with Brad (some areas where they merge...but others where there is conflict). So we as consumers would benefit from success of both games. That's why I got this forum set up. It's in our interests not to be beholden to QS and Moo3.

*You may want to read a very light business book: Coopetition by Naglebuff.

	12-01-2003 14:51									#22
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Edan,

Sure, like Neverwinter Nights. I reckon it's not as much as the wait but all those release dates that got to people.


Asmodean,

Not sure about that. I think they'd do better to really kickstart the marketing right before the game is released.

	12-01-2003 17:40									#23
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Yeah, of course they should do that, but in the end they have MoO2 backing them up, and that does count for a lot.

Asmodean

	12-01-2003 22:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by GP Pie division is more important than pie growing--the products are more substitutes than complements.

Hmmm. Color me unconvinced. There will be something of a substitution effect in the primary segment - 4x TBS geeks like us - but a high, profile, successful Moo3 launch will attract interest for GalCiv from a much larger target audience; gamers in general, who might be into playing, say, Counterstrike today. If Moo3 manages to convince 1% of that segment into looking at additional 4x TBS, I could well imagine it'd outweight a 50% substitution loss in the primary segment.

And pointing at a book won't help your case - I've done enough of these, thankyouverymuch. If you could provide a hard analysis, say from a marketing-mix perspective and indluding the five-point industry force model I'd be a lot more willing to accept you conclusion. But I'm far too lazy to do so myself, so I'll go by gut feeling. And by the old adage that in entertainment, substitution is between segements, not in them.

	12-01-2003 23:27									#25
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The five forces model is just qualititative. I don't have a whole qualitiatve business case...and certainly not a marketing conjoint analysis. I'm going off of Brad's remark in this thread.

	13-01-2003 01:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Draginol Consider this: It's gotten previews in every game magazine and webzine. I've personally visited many of the game magazines/webzines and demoed the game to them various times in the past year. By comparison, we've gotten very little coverage. Clearly they're doing something right to get all that coverage.

Like giving them large amounts of money...

But on-topic I would go for an early release. If that wouldn´t hurt the game that is (Civ3 *shudder*). If MoO3 is as ****ed up as everybody says it is, people will still buy it, but after they discover it´s crap they will return to GalCiv.

	13-01-2003 07:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by moomin Competitor or not, of course Stardock should hope for Moo3 to be a huge hit - the additional interest in the TBS 4x space format is guaranteed to trickle down to quality offerings like GalCiv if it does. That effect will far outweight any competitive crowding out that may happen.

That would be my take on it too. If Moo3 is a big success, Galcivs can latch itself onto the same bandwagon, so to speak. If people are impressed by one product of a particular genre they're much more likely to want to try out others as well...
OTOH if Moo3 turns into a bit of a flop or is subjected to more serious delays, Galcivs can portray itself as a viable alternative.

The substitute over complement angle strikes me as overly conservative. I can see it being applicable perhaps for a few weeks after release, if indeed they are released near-simultaneously, but not in the longer term.

	13-01-2003 22:36									#28
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Brad, it looks like you and I are on the same side. Unfortunately, Poly's administration is very "tender" about teasing the the gaming developers. And my attempt to "generate discussion" at the Moo3 forum about your Feb 25 prediction was locked.

Maybe you will give me some "food for discussion" later. This sort of stuff is what online communities thrive on.

	13-01-2003 22:50									#29
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GP, you dont need to troll, misinterpreting people in order to generate discussion. You ought to know this by now....

	13-01-2003 23:04									#30
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Ok.