11-01-2003 23:07									#1
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Churchill war criminal, says German historian
November 20 2002
By Kate Connolly
Berlin

Winston Churchill was a war criminal who sanctioned the extermination of Germany's civilian population through indiscriminate bombing of towns and cities, an article in the country's biggest-circulation newspaper has claimed.

In an unprecedented attack on Allied conduct during World War II, the tabloid Bild has called for recognition of the suffering inflicted on the German people during the strategic air campaigns of 1940-45.

The newspaper's crusade, prompted by a new German history of the bomber offensive, is the latest manifestation of a belief among Germans that they, too, were victims of the war - albeit a war started by their country.

The newspaper is serialising Der Brand (The Fire: Germany Under Bombardment 1940-45) by the historian Jorg Friedrich, who claims it as the most authoritative account of the bombing campaigns so far.

Mr Friedrich claims the British government set out at the start of World War II to destroy as many German cities and kill as many of their inhabitants as possible.

Civilian deaths were not collateral damage, he says, but rather the object of the exercise.

He argues that Churchill had favoured a strategy of attacking civilian population centres from the air 20 years before Hitler ordered such raids.

Britain's war leader is quoted during First World War as saying: "Perhaps the next time round the way to do it will be to kill women, children and the civilian population."

Der Brand is far removed from the dry style of most German histories and is filled with emotive accounts of the horrors of bombing, but carries few references to the man who brought retribution on Germany, Adolf Hitler.

The debate is certain to anger those in Britain who see the strategic air campaign as a necessary evil.

The serialisation of the book will also furnish the far-right in Germany with arguments to back its revisionist claims.


- Telegraph


Is it just me or are things heating over in Europe at the moment.

Other developments. France and Britain are NOT on speaking terms. Following Blairs snub at Chirac at an EU summit on agriculture Oct 25 2002. Chirac: "I have never been insulted so much before in my life."
Blair responded by sending Chirac a Winston Churchill fountain pen (now, that's two insults in one package, see if you can spot them)

Poland snubs Germany and Sweden and buys Amercan F16 instead of European fighter planes in a multi-billion dallr deal. The Europeans were unable to counter 'offset' deals to various Polish companies in the same package. And this after the Europeans have agreed to pour billions and billions of Euro into the wrecked polish economy.

And now this...

	11-01-2003 23:12									#2
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The account seems fairly fair, how can the side fighting for democracy and human rights justify things like Dresden?


As for tensions in Europe, Europe was never made to be united imo.

	11-01-2003 23:12									#3
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yay first post! churchill? war criminal?

EDIT: DAMMIT!

	11-01-2003 23:13									#4
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quote: Chirac: "I have never been insulted so much before in my life."

Is he really from France?

	11-01-2003 23:15									#5
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Even as a Brit I have to admit they have a point. Both sides committed war crimes IMO, however, because we won, they have to pay. The bombing was atrocious.

	11-01-2003 23:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Chirac: "I have never been insulted so much before in my life." Is he really from France?

Probably because he doesn't read the Apolyton Off Topic

Saluti

	11-01-2003 23:16									#7
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Germany complains that bombers were used on it?

Have they appologized about Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, Warsaw......

This is political correctness gone wild.

	11-01-2003 23:19									#8
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He's a pidgeon of the cia, planting a story to cause tension among the EU and delay or prevent it's union.

	11-01-2003 23:19									#9
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Well, Chris... if some people are going to say that Bush I was a war criminal for Iraq, I guess for consistency's sake they'll have to say Churchill and FDR were war criminals too .

	11-01-2003 23:20									#10
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I need to get bombed, with grade a booze.

	11-01-2003 23:22									#11
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Anything that stopped Nazis was a good thing, BTW.

	11-01-2003 23:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Churchill and FDR were war criminals too .

Did they or did they not order the deliberate bombing of civilians? If not, you're blind. If so, they're war criminals.

	11-01-2003 23:22									#13
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I don't see any more than usual problems in the "unity" of the EU.
The UK regularly pisses off many member states as do other countries about a variety of issues. The UK just a bit more because it is the least pro - EU country, demographically as well as politically.


But the EU has always progressed through the Axis of Berlin - Paris.


When you see problems in THAT relationship then you can start worrying about the EU

	11-01-2003 23:26									#14
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The Polish decision was a soundly slap on the EU.
And a major victory for Bush's initiatives/policy lines about defense industries.

	11-01-2003 23:28									#15
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The planes are BETTER.

	11-01-2003 23:29									#16
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Could be. In any case, the overal deal was better, according to the polish gov. and that's all that matters.

For the record we have both kind of planes
(can't be too sure)

	11-01-2003 23:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Germany complains that bombers were used on it? Have they appologized about Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, Warsaw...... This is political correctness gone wild.

As if Germany had not been sentenced for their war crimes or as if had not taken full responsablity of its war crimes. Germans did apologize (and restitute in many cases) for what they had done in the war.

Moreover, it's not about being bombed (that's what may happen in a war), but about the unnecessary and willful bombing of civilians and targets without military value. And THAT's not political correctness gone wild.

	11-01-2003 23:34									#18
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Yes it is.

NEWSFLASH:

GERMANY STARTED WWII AND AREA BOMBING OF CIVILLIAN TARGETS.

	11-01-2003 23:37									#19
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If it's a war crime for the other side to delieberately atack civilians, why isn't it a war crime for our side to do the same? I'm not defending what the other side did. Why are you defending us when we did the same thing?

	11-01-2003 23:41									#20
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War is a crime Che, once it comes, rules go out the door when fighting scum like the Nazis or Imperial Japan.

The kids today may not like it, but that's the way it is.

	11-01-2003 23:44									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Germany complains that bombers were used on it? Have they appologized about Guernica, Rotterdam, Coventry, London, Warsaw......

There´s one point you miss.

Most of the german Leadership has been comdemned fpr their crimes, they commited and the orders they gave during WW 2.

There has been a big War crime tribunal in Nuremberg after the War and I assume, those people who gave the orders to bomb english cities have also been found guilty and executed afterwards.

In contrast there haven´t been many war crime tribunals for atrocities committed by the winners of WW2 and neither Churchill nor Harris ever had account for the bombing of german residential districts.

If any nations attacks you and commits atrocities on your Citizens during the war and you retaliate and commit the same atrocities on their citizens, does it make your atrocities less grave?
I would say "No"

	11-01-2003 23:47									#22
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Well, that's the way you think it is. We are still entitled to disagree. Germany didn't start area bombing either. Even in Britain we're taught that we started it, even though it was 'justified'.

	11-01-2003 23:47									#23
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The reason that the Polish bought American fighters was that the USA government helped sweeten the deal for the Polish to the total of $8 billion. Bribery is such a good way to win eh?

	11-01-2003 23:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel The reason that the Polish bought American fighters was that the USA government helped sweeten the deal for the Polish to the total of $8 billion.

So what?

	11-01-2003 23:53									#25
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Germany began area bombing in the Spanish Civil war, so your being taught wrong.

Harris and Churchill thought they were a war winner, they were wrong.

Don't like bombing?
Next time don't start a war.

	11-01-2003 23:54									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 War is a crime Che, once it comes, rules go out the door when fighting scum like the Nazis or Imperial Japan. The kids today may not like it, but that's the way it is.

Thats for both sides. According to your statement, Germany and Japan shouldnt apologize for their war crime either.

But we did win. So does it matter?

	12-01-2003 00:03									#27
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I have no problem with it, and I find it stupid for people to ask for appologies from 60 years back events.

Also, Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were abominations, so I couldn't care less that they were bombed.

	12-01-2003 00:17									#28
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Then there was the UK intelligence operation which secured that Botswana was placed on the #24 spot, slightly less 'corrupt' than France # 25, on 8 August 2002 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index 2002 .

2 sept, 2002 Blair visits Africa

Chirac 2 nov. says After EU agricultural summit: " British bull**** is not safe and an embargo against it must be implemented in Europe."

I tend to agree.

A mini-summit between Chirac and Blair is planned for feb 4. 2003. Let's see...

	12-01-2003 00:22									#29
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Chris: Your "winner's justice" attitude is really incredible and sickening.
And don't forget, not "Nazi Germany" was bombed, but people living there, like my grandfather who was far from being a Nazi (no, he did not die). And you, again, forgot to explain why you think it's justified to bomb knowingly civilian quarters without military value, just in order to kill as many people as possible. Only becasue it's "only revenge" for other crimes commited by Germans, it doesn't make them right.

	12-01-2003 00:25									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Next time don't start a war.

Now who bankrolled Hitler, let's have that dicussion as well.