23-01-2003 04:12									#61
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by E_T O.k., I'm in. I have no I dea when I'll be getting PTW, because of personal Finances, so I can't do much but make suggestions. Where is the new Civ Groups for this? Has anyone made a Icon for it (GF??)? As long as it isn't a Banana ! E_T

hi ,

order it true this site , shipping is free and it costs 25 USD / EURO , on top of that its the US english version , so no problems with software and US always gets the patch first

just check out the CIV III main page on this site

have a nice day

	23-01-2003 04:14									#62
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Welcome gentlemen!

Mr Mayor - the group is at the top of thsi thread. Just click on it to join. It is not a closed team/forum as of yet, so no permission, per se, is required.

	23-01-2003 06:45									#63
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In a month or two when the game starts will uneed members be booted if they joined in the early stages of the development?

Btw what other teams are we aware of that are in on this interdemo game?

	23-01-2003 07:56									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Mr Mayor In a month or two when the game starts will uneed members be booted if they joined in the early stages of the development? Btw what other teams are we aware of that are in on this interdemo game?

Mr Mayor - now, I know that newfies speak a somewhat strange dialect, but can you please re-state your question so it is clearer. I think you are asking if un-needed (not sure the definition of that - theoretically, any more than one is 'un-needed') players will be booted.

I don't think the intent is to boot anyone who is a legit member of Apolyton and this team. I am keeping my eyes open - as no doubt are the others - for 'suspicious' members.

By the time the game starts, there will be a closed forum, with myself or someone else having the ability to authorize folks for the closed forum. It will be similar to the ptw-demo game. Anybody can 'join' a team and get the icon - but unless they are authorized, they can't access the closed forum and do or read anything.

Anyways - I think that is what you were asking. Hope I have answered it.

As to the other question - there are currently 3 other civ sites on board - 1BC, CDG, and Civ Fanatics. There is also a French team confirmed. We are waiting on a possible German team, and maybe a Spanish one.

	23-01-2003 09:26									#65
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So this will be a game of PtW much like the current Democracy game going, but with more out-of-site-ers? I have never PBEMed, so can someone tell me how much longer this will take than the PtW demo game currently going?

I ah, know that I am showing interest quite late in the day, but I hope I don't need to show any credentials to prove my non-DLness and my chauvinism for Apolytonia (French use of chauvinism - strangely can't think of English equivalent)

	23-01-2003 10:57									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

For being so 'chaotic' as the PTW DG is, it's moving rather quickly. I anticipate the inter-site DG will go much slower...

	23-01-2003 11:25									#67
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... or not. If we agree with the other teams on a timetable and max. turn delays (like in the PtW Demo game; for ex. one day, 2 days or so) it will go fast enough.

	23-01-2003 12:49									#68
	Got spare money?

I am concerned about spies as well. Because some posters may post at both places. I post at several forums although not this one we plan on competing against. Is there any way to see if a member of our team is also a member of their team?

	23-01-2003 12:53									#69
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Search the other forums for duplicate names and/or email addresses, for a start.

	23-01-2003 14:05									#70
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I hate the thought of spies as well. I think once a private forum is set up, DO NOT let everyone who signed up for the game in. Only let people who have atained the rank of King and up initially letting people of lesser rank (Prince and lower) in on a case by case poll of people who are already in.

	23-01-2003 14:09									#71
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Why should people be let in based on an arbitary standard of posts? It would be entirely possible for others to be both long-time members here and also members of another team.

	23-01-2003 14:19									#72
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I hate the thought of spies as well. I think once a private forum is set up, DO NOT let everyone who signed up for the game in. Only let people who have atained the rank of King and up initially letting people of lesser rank (Prince and lower) in on a case by case poll of people who are already in.

If this is going to happen you can count me out.

	23-01-2003 15:04									#73
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I'm just trying to come up with some form of security. If we let anybody and everybody in, it would compromise the entire game.

Its just a suggestion. Would you care to make a suggestion of your own?

	23-01-2003 16:03									#74
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The problem I have is that your system determines somebody's honesty by looking at their post count.

What you are implying is that somebody with more than 1000 posts can be trusted not to cheat, but somebody with less than 1000 needs is less honest and needs to go through an approval process. (/edit: I realise that you are a Prince yourself, and so didn't actually mean to discriminate like this, but this is nevertheless the effect of the system.)

It'd be much fairer to have either:
a) no approval process whatsoever - this has a big risk of being exploited by cheaters.
b) an approval process for everybody, regardless of post count - obviously one person (Markos? Betahound? I dunno...) needs to pick the first person to be approved and we can go from there.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 23-01-2003 at 16:10

	23-01-2003 19:45									#75
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OK, I have read through this whole thread and it looks interesting. It seems to me that most people intend to run for executive positions, which might result in a somewhat low numbers of ordinary citizens...

So, count me in, please - though I will join the ranks of those that will mostly read and vote only... running one demogame team is more than enough for a mortal...

	23-01-2003 20:04									#76
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack OK, I have read through this whole thread and it looks interesting. It seems to me that most people intend to run for executive positions, which might result in a somewhat low numbers of ordinary citizens...

My impression was entirely the opposite... it seems like everyone is saying they'll be a citizen, but they don't have time for executive office

	23-01-2003 21:29									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet The problem I have is that your system determines somebody's honesty by looking at their post count. What you are implying is that somebody with more than 1000 posts can be trusted not to cheat, but somebody with less than 1000 needs is less honest and needs to go through an approval process. (/edit: I realise that you are a Prince yourself, and so didn't actually mean to discriminate like this, but this is nevertheless the effect of the system.) It'd be much fairer to have either: a) no approval process whatsoever - this has a big risk of being exploited by cheaters. b) an approval process for everybody, regardless of post count - obviously one person (Markos? Betahound? I dunno...) needs to pick the first person to be approved and we can go from there.

I like(most) of your ideas.
A) this isn't high risk, its insane. All it would take would be one person to join as a spy and our team will be compromised. People will cheat (not everyone, but someone would).
b) This was actually my first idea. Have Markos be the man to do the authorizing to start with. Say, have him pick the first twenty or so. Then he gives the authorizing power to one of the 20 (say Betahound for instance) and the twenty in the team already could vote, or sponsor, other people. As people come in, they get to vote/sponsor people.

I put forth the King sugestion as just some arbitrary number. You are completely correct in that this number does not reflect weather someone is either trustworthy or an Apolytonian, but it is a start. As an example, I know in my heart that I am an Apolytonian, but there is no way I could prove it to anyone who didn't know me.

	23-01-2003 23:15									#78
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Great debate. I like the vouching idea. I agree - you know in your heart where you stand - but I would also suggest that a handful, or probably many more, of your colleagues here at Apolyton could and would vouch for where your heart stands as well. I know my Vox team-mates pretty well, and could vouch for them and vice-versa (hopefully). (you would guys, wouldn't you.... )

The approach still has flaws, and someone who has been around for awhile could still be dis-honest, but it is probably the best measure available. (outside of the obvious and limited technical ones - e-mail, etc).

It will stack the odds against a relatively new member - HarryH above being a case in point.

So, what about the idea of Markos picking a group that he knows and trusts (say 10-20 of those who signed on) and they being the ones to vouch for the others. Note that all past thread squabbles will need to be put aside for this. That is not the question on the table.

There would also need to be a policy and decision process for new members once the game is underway.

	23-01-2003 23:39									#79
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal A) this isn't high risk, its insane. All it would take would be one person to join as a spy and our team will be compromised. People will cheat (not everyone, but someone would).

I'm well aware of that.

My two options were rhetorical. I honestly see those as being the only two ways to organise the system to make it as fair as possible to the most number of people. The fact that the first option is completely impractical only serves to promote the second option.



I agree that 'being an apolytoner' is a rather nebulous concept - and post count is a good place to start in determining this. I feel that 1000 is rather too high however, but that's not what is important. As long as many other factors in addition to post count and join date are taken into consideration when it comes to 'inexperienced' members we haven't all heard of then I'm fine with it.

Our experiences of setting up the PTW demogame will be useful to us, I'm sure.

	23-01-2003 23:39									#80
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Hi guys, got a suggestion which may make the whole spying thing a little easier to control, one of my fellow CDG admins, Omnimower, has suggested we cooperate between the sites to share ip info on players so any double logins on different sites could be identified. This would help immeasurably of course to see if anyone was indeed spying on other teams.

If we do this then for privacy and security reasons the info would have to be shared SOLELY with say the site admin or similar as we cannot of course divulge this info to regular users. If this would be of interest then please let me know and we'll take it to the UN to see if the other sites would also like to join this scheme.

Kentonio

	23-01-2003 23:42									#81
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Wouldn't it be easier to have the site admins or high ranking mods compare the ip addresses of the players? I know that Mark and Thunderfall are honorable and wouldn't allow such foolishness.

	23-01-2003 23:50									#82
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How's this thing progressing? Any updates on when we might start? We're going to need to organize prior to the start, get the team settled, get our structure worked out, and get our early leadership in place.

I agree with Arnelos, I don't think we're going to see a lot of us running for Executive Positions early because many of us are busy with other responsibilities, so I'm curious to see who is interested in leading APOLYTON in this great contest?

Who amongst us will be our first Great Leader?

--Togas

	24-01-2003 00:20									#83
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Wouldn't it be easier to have the site admins or high ranking mods compare the ip addresses of the players? I know that Mark and Thunderfall are honorable and wouldn't allow such foolishness.

Unfortunately, some providers change IPs regularly in order to combat system abuse, so that won't work.

	24-01-2003 00:33									#84
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Unfortunately, some providers change IPs regularly in order to combat system abuse, so that won't work.

I see. But if you look at the IPs when everyone starts, wouldn't they be the same (or quite similar) for someone using both sites? And if someone wants to join after that, just compare their ip address to those used currently on the other site. What I'm saying is, that if they want to be a spy, they would have to report their findings, which would mean that they would have to log in around the same time on each site.

How often would they switch, anyway?

	24-01-2003 02:00									#85
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That was the point we were making, it can only help to combat abuse even if it isnt a perfect solution. Will need to hear from your admin though if he wants to do this as we cant release ip details publicly of course.

kentonio

	24-01-2003 02:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I see. But if you look at the IPs when everyone starts, wouldn't they be the same (or quite similar) for someone using both sites? And if someone wants to join after that, just compare their ip address to those used currently on the other site. What I'm saying is, that if they want to be a spy, they would have to report their findings, which would mean that they would have to log in around the same time on each site. How often would they switch, anyway?

hi ,

and what to do with dynamic ip , ...

have a nice day

	24-01-2003 02:23									#87
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This will most likely be an interesting PBEM game, count me in too.

With the reservation that if paranoia will strike badly and us low post count people will not see the actual game, then i ofcourse will not join.

There would be no point in being a part of a PBEM game if you cant see the actual events

	24-01-2003 04:57									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Conqueror This will most likely be an interesting PBEM game, count me in too. With the reservation that if paranoia will strike badly and us low post count people will not see the actual game, then i ofcourse will not join. There would be no point in being a part of a PBEM game if you cant see the actual events

If people prince or lower can't play due to their newness to the forum or their relative lack of posting, it will make the game less enjoyable.

	24-01-2003 04:58									#89
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel I see. But if you look at the IPs when everyone starts, wouldn't they be the same (or quite similar) for someone using both sites? And if someone wants to join after that, just compare their ip address to those used currently on the other site. What I'm saying is, that if they want to be a spy, they would have to report their findings, which would mean that they would have to log in around the same time on each site. How often would they switch, anyway?

My IP changes every time I reboot my router. I do that on occassion because for some reason my connection speed slows down over time if I don't reboot the router (I highly suspect this has to do with Verizon....)

It's also a nice security feature, especially when coupled with my firewall.

	24-01-2003 07:11									#90
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by BetaHound: It will stack the odds against a relatively new member - HarryH above being a case in point.

Go ahead, pick on me. See if I care.
I guess it depends on how you define new. I joined Apolyton before you did. I just have not been active in posting.

It's too bad there are some people that feel they need to cheat and spoil it for everyone else when it is just a game. I had enough of that in my old FidoNet days.

We have no security gates with identity checks. Any method that could be used will have its flaws. You might get lucky but anyone who is serious about cheating will find a way.

IP/email address checks - Might get lucky and catch someone. Sort of like those dumb criminal spots I hear on the radio. These checks would be so easy to get around.

Post count - Back in my FidoNet days there were some people who posted a lot. I guess it made them feel like an expert or something. Lots of posts didn't necessarily make them reputable though. Over time though you learned the good from the bad. If post count will be a major factor I could crank it up real quick.

Approval/recommendations - Probably your best bet. It's usually your gut that tells you whether or not to trust someone. This will leave out new people who are not known. Someone (or group) will have to make the decision and there are bound to be some people (on either side) who will not be happy with every decision.