13-01-2003 01:23									#1
	Citizens against Court Case #9 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Check out this embarrassing Court Case right here.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=73076

I'll begin by saying that upon reading this thread, I am continously annoyed by this case as it keeps going. To begin with, I don't believe it should have even been brought to the Court, is a waste of time even for the plaintiffs, though especially the Judges who have to watch the Plaintiffs make a mockery of the Court and it's system.

That the only reason this case is in existence is because of a minor fault in the Constitution that a Cabinet Veto must take place within 72 hours of the law they vetoed. In reality, the Veto took place so shortly after the time limit that it really should not even have been challenged.
There are those who would seek the Constitution followed to the letter, even the faulty portions of it like this. They are also the same people who do not wish to compromise their position by agreeing that REAL LIFE takes PRECEDENCE over ANYTHING that happens in this game.

Might I point out that if the NewCon REALLY took precedence over everything in the minds of those here, even really life matters, than many of us in real life could be without jobs, isolated from our families, and simply forum-junkies doing nothing but letting our eyes rot from the electrons in our monitors.

Who cares if the Veto was missed by a couple hours, or even longer? Does it really matter?

Might I also point out that this Court Case #9 has been the most unorthodox (not not the person, the WORD) and embarrasing case in the history of 'poly.

The Judges and Defendants have had to wait patiently while Plaintiffs without much of a case argue amongst themselves, hurl insults, and make a mockery of the Court.

I mean seriously folks, remember Reddawg vs. Mr Orange? That was a serious case, one that was carried out in an orderly manner, with both sides intelligently speaking their case, and not resorting to personal attacks, spam posts, or otherwise off-topic statements. Unlike #9. There is no respect for the Court in this latest case, not much that I've seen anyways.

Enough of my rant. I will stand outside the Great Courthouse and start a picket line. I will proudly hang a sign above my head that proudly states in fine, bold letters:

"LEAVE THE CABINET ALONE!"

Who is with me?

Meshelic

	13-01-2003 01:48									#2
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I must definitely agree with you. There is absolutely no order what so ever to the proceedings. And everyone seems to be randomly posting and not following the rules of the court.

I do not envy the justices at the moment, the situation they are put in is absolutely unfair and a huge waste of their time. I do hope this case is just thrown out. No matter what the outcome is, it will not accomplish anything.

Not to mention the fact that it is a sticky and posted at the very top of our boards, so visitors from all over the place will immediately get a horrible impression of Apolytonia.

	13-01-2003 02:01									#3
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I agree. I find the case in general quite ridiculous; and I'm shocked to see the supreme authority of RL questioned. (But at least skywalker agrees on the second point.)

	13-01-2003 02:22									#4
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As defendent inthis case, I realy shouldn't post in this thread

As a citizen, I bow to you Mel, I agree.

	13-01-2003 02:33									#5
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My problem with the proceedings is a little different. The underlying issue of the bill that was vetoed has been properly analysed and there appears to be concensus developing about the underlying cause from a game play perspective.

So the original bill is unnecessary
but
It was passed
but
it was vetoed
but
it was vetoed late
but
who is there left to care?
but
just in case

When there is a gross surplus of workers as was and still is the case, it is advantageous to absorb locals first. But when we get down to a task defined skeleton crew, it is advantageous to absorb locals last so that the crew can be smaller.

So if the whole case went away, our newly enlightened DM's would probably get it right.

If the veto is upheld, our newly enlightened DM's would probably get it right.

If the veto is overturned, our newly enlightened DM's would be obligated to post a bill that voided the original bill and hope that it is effective before we reach that skeleton crew state.

So will the court please act quickly?
How about today.

	13-01-2003 02:47									#6
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I just want to say that only MJW thinks the NewCon supersedes RL. I have REPEATEDLY said that I think that RL supersedes the NewCon. It's just that I think RL is not the issue here.

	13-01-2003 02:57									#7
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I stand with you Meshelic. And I most particularly agree with roadcage. The whole thing has been a series of fiascos that shouldn't have kept going but did. And now the court has no choice but to rule on a mish-mash of absurdities. It's not the court's fault, but they should meet, rule, and move on, and keep their integrity intact.

Let the cabinet get on with the game! Vote now! Rule now! Don't let past events control our actions!

Last edited by Thud on 13-01-2003 at 03:05

	13-01-2003 03:32									#8
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The Arguments for the Defense has been outstanding. Other than that, I will reserve any further comments on the issue, as I am technically a defendant, sort of.

E_T

	13-01-2003 03:39									#9
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Although I have no part in any of the proceedings, as a citizen I ask that the plaintiffs stand down, that the defense be allowed to continue their work this term unabated by these accusations, and that the Judges not have to deal with this case anymore.

Thank you
Meshelic

	13-01-2003 03:49									#10
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quote: Originally posted by E_T The Arguments for the Defense has been outstanding. Other than that, I will reserve any further comments on the issue, as I am technically a defendant, sort of. E_T

ET - Definitely. Adamada is a fabulous "lawyer" in this game. Way to go Adamada, you are doing a great job.

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Although I have no part in any of the proceedings, as a citizen I ask that the plaintiffs stand down, that the defense be allowed to continue their work this term unabated by these accusations, and that the Judges not have to deal with this case anymore. Thank you Meshelic

Again, I agree with Meshelic and I am sure many others do. The defense has already recognized the error of their ways and the veto is not recognized anyway.

	13-01-2003 04:14									#11
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quote: Again, I agree with Meshelic and I am sure many others do. The defense has already recognized the error of their ways and the veto is not recognized anyway.

How so? And why is the veto not recognized?

Do you mean to say that the cabinet has learned from their mistake and this will not happen again? Yes. Should the veto be recognized: it depends on the court, but I beleive Yes.

I believe Meshelic simply wants skywalker et al to withdraw their case and let the veto stand. This way, the court does not have to delay further in their deliberation.

	13-01-2003 04:19									#12
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A) If the VETO stands, it affects nothing
B) If the VETO does not stand, it still affects nothing
C) If the Plaintiffs win the case, it affects nothing
D) If the Defendants win the case, it affects nothing

Why hold a court hearing when the end result is, yup, you guessed it, "nothing" ?

What is to be gained by filing charges?

What is to be gained by withdrawing the Veto?

What is to be gained at all in any circumstance?

I don't wish to see our Judicial System turn into a Kangaroo Court.

	13-01-2003 04:22									#13
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Precedent.

	13-01-2003 05:12									#14
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Thud, perhaps I worded it wrong, but this post by MSS (a cabinet member, so it holds some authority I think) explains the opinion I am trying to say:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...861#post1589861

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Aggie, I agree with you regarding precedent. I just want to see the problem solved by the Senate, not the Court. You had the right idea don't push it, let the issue be resolved in time and let people get a plan together. Skywalker, Spiffor as DM as the POWER to sponsor a senate bill which directly affects his duties as DM and that bill CAN repeal another law. As for the illegality of the veto, it is not illeagal, just ineffective as if it (the veto) never happened. There is NO reason for a court case as NO law was violated, yet. If the DM or Prez assimilated foreign workers, then the law would be violated and there is a case. THERE IS NO CASE HERE. Just an argument of wheather the law will (note... will) stand up in court if it is violated. I can pretty much assure you that it will. You are RIGHT, the veto is INVALID, TOO LATE and MEANINGLESS. The law stands as the VETO NEVER HAPPENED. Are you asking the Court for a ruling on it, go for it. There is NO real counter argument that can be made. Again if the pres or DM want to push the issue, they will assimilate some foreign workers this next turn chat and BREAK THE LAW. Then there will be a case. Untill then we have an ambigous situation. There have been no laws or rules broken, just a missed deadline and some ensuing confusion. The court can rule on the veto, but it seems simple...IT NEVER HAPPENED, deadline missed, the law stands. My suggestion is let the senate fix the standing law. Nuff said Mss PS. It seams that I am shouting, but I am just empahsizing some points. Have fun...

Regardless of the legality. I think the justices should drop the case as it is a waste of everyone's time.

	13-01-2003 06:27									#15
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With regards to the veto, it does matter; the DM needs to know whether he can integrate slaves without being dragged through court and possibly censured/impeached for violating senate law.

	13-01-2003 06:49									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep With regards to the veto, it does matter; the DM needs to know whether he can integrate slaves without being dragged through court and possibly censured/impeached for violating senate law.

Ah thanks. In the last week or so of this court issue, I'd lost focus on what the real problem was.

I figured it was mostly about the VETO itself, not necessarily the integration of slaves...

Meshelic

	13-01-2003 07:27									#17
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quote: I mean seriously folks, remember Reddawg vs. Mr Orange? That was a serious case, one that was carried out in an orderly manner, with both sides intelligently speaking their case, and not resorting to personal attacks, spam posts, or otherwise off-topic statements. Unlike #9. There is no respect for the Court in this latest case, not much that I've seen anyways.

The Court has decided to run this case a little differently. It has not been very controlled and we will discuss if future cases will be run like this. I expect the case to end soon.

	13-01-2003 07:41									#18
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This thread troubles me greatly, but your point has been made. I am personally dissapointed that the more free-form approach to these cases did not fix the slow nature of our system, as I had hoped it would nor has it helped us to resolve the issues sooner. If anyone has some constructive ideas on how we can improve these hearings in the future, without laying out a whole mess of complicated procedural law, please post here or send me a PM.

Ideally, I'd like to fix the system so that it is more open to the public, moves faster, and gives everyone involved a voice in the issue. Those three things are somewhat difficult to combine, but we're working on it.

--Judge Togas

	13-01-2003 09:03									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Togas This thread troubles me greatly, but your point has been made. I am personally dissapointed that the more free-form approach to these cases did not fix the slow nature of our system, as I had hoped it would nor has it helped us to resolve the issues sooner. If anyone has some constructive ideas on how we can improve these hearings in the future, without laying out a whole mess of complicated procedural law, please post here or send me a PM. Ideally, I'd like to fix the system so that it is more open to the public, moves faster, and gives everyone involved a voice in the issue. Those three things are somewhat difficult to combine, but we're working on it. --Judge Togas

Togas

I have no intention of being demeaning towards our judicial system, in fact I support it wholeheartedly. All the Judges have done a fine job in previous cases, and are all very gifted individuals. Freedom of speech allows me, and others, to disagree with the basis of the Court Case #9, however.

Should this matter have gone to Court? Upon purely technical terms, yes, it probably had to be done in order to follow the NewCon to the letter. I understand that.

Is it in the best interests of those involved? My personal opinion says no. I see it as a waste of their time, although I understand that nobody is holding a gun to my head, forcing me to read the thread.

There is nothing wrong with people thinking the case at hand is a petty matter, not worthy of our great Court.
I simply don't wish to see the time of talented individuals such as yourselves wasted on a largely inconsequential case.

Although I have immense respect for the parties involved, I don't think it's to anyones benefit here to continue this case.

Meshelic

	13-01-2003 09:04									#20
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I am pleased that the Court has decided to make it's ruling within the next 24 hours. Thank you for hearing me and my fellow citizens out.

Meshelic

	13-01-2003 09:30									#21
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I am doing this because if I do not stop this will not be a good precendent for real life vs. the con. I want to settle this issue so it never happens again so I will arge my point as best as I can. The reason why I started this argument is because I could attack weak points a decided (dumbly) two throw in 2 sentences that talked about real life vs. the con. I do not want to stop now otherwise I would have wasted 2 hours of my time for no reason. I was working on the arguments that skywalker made but he beat me to it.

	13-01-2003 09:56									#22
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MJW and Skywalker

I don't intend to cast blame on either of you, that's not my intention. I don't wish to discredit either of you, I realize that maybe you felt like you needed to save face since the Case started. I don't know if that's it or not, and it's not up to me anyways.

MJW the time you spent wasn't for waste. If you believed it to be right than you did what you could and that is certainly respectable. We still don't know how the Court will rule on this subject, so it's all up in the air.

The issue of Real life vs. duties here shouldn't....be an issue. That's just my opinion, as all of my comments in this thread are. Just opinions.

Arnelos was late in approving of the Veto, due to real life issues that he could not avoid. That is, to me, acceptable. Real life should never be ahead of the demo game. That is really my only argument for the Defendants, although I admit I'm not a party in the case and have nothing to do with it other than my comments in this thread here.

I understand both points, the plaintiffs and defendants. Both are correct in many ways, so I can see why it would be a delicate case to handle.

Thank goodness I'm not on the Court. I don't have half the patience our Judges do.

Good luck to all of you
Meshelic

	13-01-2003 10:18									#23
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It was dumb beacause I just should have not even stared the court case because like Meshelic said it does not matter.

	13-01-2003 10:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MJW It was dumb beacause I just should have not even stared the court case because like Meshelic said it does not matter.

MJW don't worry about it.

	13-01-2003 17:06									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic ...Thank goodness I'm not on the Court. I don't have half the patience our Judges do. Meshelic

Those guys are saints!

	13-01-2003 20:11									#26
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I realize I'm brand new to all of this, but I find this court case interesting. The concept of real life taking precedence over the constituton is significant. It has far reaching implications for this game. If the court chooses to uphold the veto, this could get messy.... Just a newbie opinion though!

	13-01-2003 22:47									#27
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As this is the first time I have seen you hereabouts, Mr. Serw, I would like to welcome you to Apolytonia! I hope you stay and enhance this game through your presense.

The first enhancement you can do is vote for me for FAM...

(j/k, vote for whomever more represents your views. if you like my view, though, you should probably join the DIA)

	14-01-2003 00:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Thud (j/k, vote for whomever more represents your views. if you like my view, though, you should probably join the DIA)

Shameless, aren't you Thud?

Every newbie that posts here gets immediately thrusted into a recruitement frenzy. I think it's hiliarious. Of course the DIA wants you, despite their huge roster of names. Despite being the largest political party. They're obviously too intimidated by the smaller Hawk and Labor Parties...

	14-01-2003 01:02									#29
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No its just this how we got this large and its habit.

	14-01-2003 01:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Nimitz No its just this how we got this large and its habit.

If that's what you say. j/k