13-01-2003 22:20									#1
	Power Democracy strats? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have heard that power democracies are really good but I have yet to see a strat for them in a detailed format. Anybody got one?

	14-01-2003 00:46									#2
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What's a power democracy?

Creating NON-unit farms (letting the barbarians grab a small city, station spy outside it, bribe a NON unit every couple of turns) can be very handy in democracy/republic. Even better with Leos.

Building Shakespeare in a coastal city and supporting all your naval (and later, air) units there is also useful.

If you don't have the UN, it can be helpful to keep an oedo table handy, revolt every 4 turns to demand tribute/make war, and then go back to democracy...

	14-01-2003 04:43									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And don't forget to take advantage of getting a new government tech during an odeo year. Even in democracy you can accept the revolt, and only lose the science in the cities that haven't cycled yet. If your capital is the one that delivers the last beaker needed, the revolt will cost you nothing. Choose a government that let's you demand, extort the AI for any monies, go to war with who you want, etc. Then revolt again during your turn, and you can select democracy again.

Painless and it costs you hardly anything (if anything) if you do it right.

RAH

	14-01-2003 04:54									#4
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Of course, you only get a couple of chances per game to do that, rah... when you get Fundamentalism and Communism. But it's a good trick... and really, that's how you should effect all government changes if possible.

One more tip: when using oedo year revolts to start wars and demand cash - make sure you turn off the 'civil disorder' and 'order restored' indicators in the City Reports menu, especially if you have 40+ cities!!

	14-01-2003 07:14									#5
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STYOM,

I suppose you are referring to 40+ size 3 cities where losing shields, arrows, and the ability to rush/tickle units is no big deal; right??

I hate to lose even one turn of production if I don't have to. It is indeed a pain in the neck to cycle 40+ cities to adjust for disorder after going into revolt. I just consider it a cost of doing business. The pain is doubled because one then has to repeat the cycle-thru after the new gov't is set, to reset the cities' back the way they were.

I know you are aware of this point which I offer for the benifit of someone reading this thread who might not be so experienced. The point is, one does not have to endure disorder if they'd rather not.

Monk

	14-01-2003 18:21									#6
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If you're lazy like I am, just change your tax rate. (since you ain't getting science anyway set it to zero and pump up the luxury) This will take care of about 90% of the cities. Then change it back.

	14-01-2003 18:34									#7
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Good point, rah.

	15-01-2003 01:12									#8
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@Monk - I agree - of course, I can't remember the last game I played where I didn't get the UN when I wanted it. In such a situation, I'd probably just switch to Fundamentalism if I wanted war, rather than revolt/start war/demand tribute/reselect Demo.

But then this is a DEMOCRACY thread... I like being in democracy for the growth. Pump up the luxuries for 10 turns (build infrastructure with trade profits) and you won't care about shield support. My biggest, most productive cities are always developed in democracy games. You can carry hundreds of units easily if your cities are all 20+. And make a really, really long game...

I stand by my assertion that turning off the revolt/restored indicator is a good idea Besides, the Attitude screen works better... tells you what will happen while you still have a chance to do something about it!

	15-01-2003 02:24									#9
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well i guess the reality for tbs games is that they are played at a slow place. therefore micromanaging is just something that we accept as part of the game. Rahs idea will prevent almost all revolts, but it will not maximize the cities , but it will save you time.

to maximize is to painstakingly go through each city....my days of doing this are far over.

i make a quick assessment of cities and pray for the best haha....in mp time restrictions are rampant and i pride myself on being a great, FAST, player. though i do suffer disorder from time to time

	15-01-2003 02:33									#10
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STYOM,

Did you perhaps mean SOL?? If not, please explain how the UN let's you do that. Are you saying that one can switch gov't type without going to revolt (...switch to Fundamentalism...rather than revolt....)??

When I revolt I crank Lux to 60, then cycle thru and adjust cities, as necessary using--as you suggest--the attitude advisor. For me the revolt/disorder nag is not an issue. It won't sound unless I screwed up one of the cities.

My point was that just turning off the nag doesn't avoid the disorder and I don't like to lose a turn where I can't rush a unit if I need to. Which can't be done in a city in disorder.

And I agree that your approach, turning off the nag is a good idea, even essential to good mental health, if you choose not to micro manage the cities when you revolt. Getting nagged time after time, city after city, is a major irritation.

"...makes a really, really long game."...You got that right!! That's why I'm trying to learn Solo's Early Landing style. Using Democracy but only growing one city. Much simpler.

Monk

	15-01-2003 03:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk STYOM, Did you perhaps mean SOL?? If not, please explain how the UN let's you do that. Are you saying that one can switch gov't type without going to revolt (...switch to Fundamentalism...rather than revolt....)??

No, no... I didn't explain that well, did I?

I meant that when I have UN, I can just start a war, rather than needing to revolt to do it. And if you start enough wars, it becomes easy to provoke them, I find. Also, the UN=peace rather than ceasefire... and in peace you can demand they withdraw... and that will almost always provoke war.

Without the UN, I do the revolt/war/tribute (the tribute part is important - makes up for lost production, when you go back to Demo a turn later you can crank up the science to make up for lost time, running a deficit paid for with tribute. Or rushbuy with tribute...)/Demo. But there is still a period of anarchy (1 turn- thanks oedo!) which can be somewhat compensated for with tribute.

quote: "...makes a really, really long game."...You got that right!! That's why I'm trying to learn Solo's Early Landing style. Using Democracy but only growing one city. Much simpler. Monk

Yup... as I said, Demo is good for high score games... grow some huge cities, build an improvement/unit almost every turn in almost every city. Slow, but it looks impressive.

	15-01-2003 03:29									#12
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The worst thing in MP is the update of the attitude advisor. You page through and no cities are revolting but when you click on the city it can update and show an unexpected unhappy citizen. Somtimes it's best to change your tax rate to force the advisor to update, and then change it back before scrolling through. (the time constraint is what makes it primarily a MP problem)

RAH

	15-01-2003 04:20									#13
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rah ... the quick way is to open the city screen of your capital. Then hit the up arrow on your keyboard. This swiftly scrolls through all your cities until you come back to your first city. Then go to F4 for the current state of affairs.

----------------------

SG(2)

	15-01-2003 10:40									#14
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hmmm.... i am going to try that let you known my experiences after some innebriation (spelling?)

	15-01-2003 10:57									#15
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My own interpretation of power democracy:
1. Wonders:
Shakespeare's, Mike's, Bach's, CfC, UN, W.'s Suffrage
2. At least 5-7 military units per city
3. High income, lots of trade routes
4. 3-5 Super Production Cities (80+ shields per turn)
(for quick reinforcments)
5. More than 20 size 20+ cities
6. Last but not least: A human player in front of the monitor willing to use this possibilities ...

	15-01-2003 14:19									#16
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Just a quick mod on (2)'s suggestion - I find that you have to use the mouse for the first change of city - click on the arrow symbol - and then hold down the arrow key to scroll through the empire in less than a second...

SG[1]

	15-01-2003 14:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. My own interpretation of power democracy:........ 2. At least 5-7 military units per city ........

ramses II ...your games seem to reach baroque proportions. Are you sure you don't mean Paranoiac Democracy?

-------------------

SG(2)

	15-01-2003 14:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ramses II ...your games seem to reach baroque proportions. Are you sure you don't mean Paranoiac Democracy? ------------------- SG(2)

Yeah in games with a demo strat I rarely have over 100 military units, until maybe the late endgame.

Diplo's, counterattackers and some defenders at key points should do the trick.

	15-01-2003 14:48									#19
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I think Ramses is really a rabid rodent who just pretends to be perfectionist...

SG[1]

	15-01-2003 14:55									#20
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Hehe yeah.....it's what happens when ICSing barbarians try to civilise themselves too quickly.

	15-01-2003 15:35									#21
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@SG<1+2>
Power Democracy means: I've got the power ...
to convince the rest of the world that democracy is the superior government.

George W. Bush is a power democrat ...

	15-01-2003 18:32									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Just a quick mod on (2)'s suggestion - I find that you have to use the mouse for the first change of city - click on the arrow symbol - and then hold down the arrow key to scroll through the empire in less than a second... SG[1]

When we first started playing MP, I used to use the arrow key to scroll through, but occasionaly it would lock the game and we'd have to reload it. (it never happened in SP). I don't know if it the patches fixed that particular bug because honestly I haven't tried it since I realized that it might cause a problem. I do remember it being a reported problem at one point.

Time is of the essence especially early in the game when you're whipping through the turns. Even more critical when I'm trying to sneak in a smoke between turns.

	16-01-2003 02:12									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ramses II. @SG<1+2> Power Democracy means: I've got the power ... to convince the rest of the world that democracy is the superior government. George W. Bush is a power democrat ...

you could include just about any USA president of that ..... some had better results than other s

	16-01-2003 15:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by rah Even more critical when I'm trying to sneak in a smoke between turns.

rah *cough* for shame! *cough* give me another!

SG[1]

	16-01-2003 18:15									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, it can be inconvienent. It always seems that whenever I walk away, a wonder gets build and sometimes I don't notice. The other night, I'm rushing to philosophy only to find that another civ got it quite a few turns before but I didn't see the notice because I was puffing away. Or missing an embasy being established or having a tech stolen. But the worst is losing an exploring unit to another civ. You come back and it's your turn, and you're thinking, I thought I had someone out there. "OH WELL, time to run out and get another beer"

RAH

	17-01-2003 01:07									#26
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rah!

First the no-seatbelt admission (admittedly, you have reformed), and now we learn that rah smokes!

My respect for mods is diminished

Now, since we're discussing scrolling through huge numbers of cities... does anyone use the city advisors with a custom build queue? I've tried it with mixed results.

	17-01-2003 01:24									#27
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STYOM,

Curious as to how/in what way you customized the queue and how it helps...

Monk

	17-01-2003 02:20									#28
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hehe, personally i like to send it back to Ming when he tells me he is going to take a leak hit the button by accident

Rah, yeah nothing worse than losing that unit to God only knows what, and i have made that philo mistake before, or even worse the HG one

i would like to know about the city queue as well?

	17-01-2003 02:45									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

Sending on to ming when he's pissing is fun.

Yes the HG one. You rush back from a smoke, have to choose a tech to research, choose pottery, finish your turn, check the top 5 cities, and see that HG WAS JUST BUILT.

	17-01-2003 03:13									#30
	Remove this text

In games with many, many cities, I used to make a custom build queue to be used when you put the city on 'auto-build' on the city menu. You can edit the queue the city manager uses in game.txt, IIRC (It might be rules.txt )

Now, when I found a new city, I usually go riflemen-engineer-caravan-caravan-caravan-caravan ad nauseum build order. But before, as a perfectionist, I would go (defender)-engineer-temple-library-marketplace-aqueduct-bank etc... and had a build queue so that I wouldn't have as much micromanagement.

Now that I know micromanagement is a big key to Civ2 success, I don't do that anymore.