15-01-2003 00:12									#1
	Turn 32 Increase Your PM Length

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- We possess 31 gold and are running 1 deficit.
- Researching Alphabet at 100%.

Urgent questions:
- none for now

Military:
- Grog fortifies at the Lookout Ridge.
- Slash explores along the west coast.
- Hack and Ouch shadow Tim and Willy.
- Crush returns to Hurricane
- Zonk moves to EotS.

Economy:
- Hurricane switches laborer to grassland.
- EotS grows to size 5, works 3 FPs and both irrigated furs.
- Worker finishes road, moves 6 to prepare for chop.

Diplomacy:
- nothing for now.

Last edited by nbarclay on 15-01-2003 at 02:00

	15-01-2003 00:19									#2
	Re: Turn 32 Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Diplomacy: - nothing for now.

IMHO we should already be planning our next tech trade (after the second tier of the bronze/iron deal).
Any thoughts?

	15-01-2003 00:29									#3
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First we need to research our part of the deal (Alphabet).

	15-01-2003 00:39									#4
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I'm hoping that by that time, we hear more from RPG (Godking only read last message yesterday). If they really are close to sending a galley, we shouldn't spend commerce on going for mapmaking. Writing, however, might be a good option anyhow.

DeepO

	15-01-2003 01:34									#5
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Any chance we could sell them pottery?
I know they're researching it already, but perhaps we could come up with some kind of a deal. Though I doubt it, it would be a shame to waste an opportunity.

	15-01-2003 01:38									#6
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For cash? Sounds good... but I doubt they'll go for it.

Maybe it is time to start considering what we want Vox to research... so we can later trade for it. Of course, as a middleman, they could leave all research to Civ X and us, while they just save cash... it will work as long as we don't have mapmaking, or steal / trade the contact from Vox somehow.

DeepO

	15-01-2003 12:59									#7
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Turn arrived, as always when I was on the last steps to work. Somebody play it, or we wait till I return home.

	15-01-2003 21:45									#8
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Re: tech research/trading...

I think the most important thing is deciding which tech we intend to research after Alphabet is done. Once we complete Alphabet, we will be trading it for IW. So we will have Pottery, CB, Masonry, BW, IW, Alphabet. Do we still intend to go for MapMaking? I think we should. But that's not something I'd want to trade, unless the trade offer was awfully juicy.

The alternatives are: Monarchy beeline, or Republic beeline. Mapmaking, useful as it will be for other purposes, will slow us from getting to a better form of government.

However, if we do go up the republic angle, writing is next up, and that allows contact trading and embassies... if we feel like really becoming partners with Vox, we could propose some sort of trade like writing + pottery for a tech and contact w/the other team they've met.

As for the military moves SR has layed out above, they're fine by me.

-Arrian

	15-01-2003 21:49									#9
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Oh, one other thing...

If we do go for MapMaking, we can use one of the coastal cities we build to take a shot at either the Colossus or the Great Lighthouse (in other words, if we take the chance of trying to build one of them, and get beaten to it, we won't necessarily be screwed, because we will be able to switch to the other one).

Another advantage to the writing angle, however, is the ability to establish embassies so we can see people's capitols.

-Arrian, throwin' those options out there.

	15-01-2003 21:58									#10
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I've been thinking on wonder building a lot lately... maybe we should revisit it. I don't think anyone has started on a wonder yet, or they should have gotten the settler from a hut like we did. So, starting now, or very soon is stil an option, for any wonder we want. (GL for instance)

RPG has said before jthat they are not interested in the lighthouse or the Colossus, but it is very possible that they made the deal with someone else to not go for those two, and focus on pyramids or GL...

DeepO

	15-01-2003 22:08									#11
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I think with the possible exception of the G library, REXing is more important than a wonder at the moment (As much as I would like to have one).

P.S. I've been pretty much keeping up with this, just haven't had time to post. Thought I'd say something to show I'm still around

	15-01-2003 22:13									#12
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Turn played. Nothing special, all as was planned. Screenies (zoom, f11, power) soon.

	15-01-2003 22:17									#13
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Team scores:

62 (+2) Gathering Storm
72 (+2) Demogyptica
62 (+1) Glory of War
67 (+1) Role Play
60 (+1) Vox Controli
55 (+2) Lux Invicta
68 (+2) Legoland

	15-01-2003 22:25									#14
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DeepO,

The problem as I see it is that we have a potentially dangerous neighbor. If we had bumped into Lego, I would probably advocate a GLibrary attempt.

But we have a neighbor with a 4/2/1 unit and unknown intentions. Therefore, I was thinking that going all-out for one of the big wonders is not really a viable option.

But the Colossus & G.Lighthouse are smaller. Additionally, I've often (in SP, of course) taken a shot at one of those, lost, and left that city building a "palace" and then snatched a later wonder (like the Hanging Gardens, or even sometimes the GL).

EotS at size 12 it will be solid... if my caculations are right, 21 shields/turn if it's allowed to use all of the best tiles, so I understand the temptation to go for one of the biggies. But that would really hurt our REX... unless we totally neglect our military... which as I pointed out above really isn't an option with an Immortal-armed human opponent nearby.

-Arrian

	15-01-2003 22:41									#15
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Hmm... speaking of wonders (you've got me going now), we may want to start thinking about the most important wonder of all: the FP.

Do we build one close to EotS and hope to rush a palace move with a leader? IMO, this is hugely risky in this sort of game, particularly with a non-militaristic civ.

Do we build one near our northern border (wherever that ends up being) and then hope to take out Vox? Less risk, less reward.

The lands to our north are fairly poor. The jungle area, which I'm not at all sure we will settle before Vox does, has potential, it requires a lot of worker turns to develop. The rest of the north is pretty bad: desert, hills, mountains, some plains... ugh.

But I don't really see a viable alternative to building the FP up in that general area. We can't count on a great leader from warfare. We are not militaristic, and human opponents will not send out units 1 at a time for us to slaughter with our carefully hoarded elite units. Leader generation, I think, will be more difficult. Thus, I firmly believe we're going to have to build the FP manually. If we're going to do that, we need to think about where we intend to do it, and get started on it as soon as possible. Obviously, before we can actually start the FP itself, we need 1/2 the OCN of cities (on a standard map, chieftain level, that's what, 10 cities?), but we can use something else as a placeholder until we hit that number (granary, for instance).

So, the question is where? From a military standpoint, I've argued against beelining for a northern border city up by the jungle. From a short-term economic standpoint, settling closer to home is better as well. However, that's the best terrain available up north.

Or maybe we just don't build the damn thing? Arg, I'm rambling now. Curse the CivGods who gave us such crappy northern terrain.

-Arrian

	15-01-2003 23:00									#16
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Eye of the Storm is already in a pretty good position in terms of Palace placement. We coud conceivably jump it a bit farther north, but the 4 cities in the southern peninsula would suffer.

I agree that the FP will need to be manually built, probably somewhere near the isthmus or in the Voxian lands. This should not take too long, and our core is nice enough that we will not be anxiously waiting for its completion, either. Under no circumstances should not depend on a Leader (this is also my theory in SP games, but that's another story).


Dominae

	15-01-2003 23:13									#17
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Arrian: I agree on the big wonder thing, plus never will it be worth it to give such a pump as EotS for a wonder. Those settlers it can build every 4-6 turns are way more important to us now... I was just mentioning it, because if we would want to go for the GLib, we should start now, or don't bother. Others will surely have an easier shot at it, and will start around this time if they really aim for it.

Of course, our future with Vox is quite uncertain, and this is the problem. If we would go for the GLib, we have to really go for it, which will sacrifice either expansion or defense. I don't like that. OTOH, we will probably be the best scientists until the middle of the middle ages, as we can have the best expansion. Which makes the GLib kind of a strange wonder: without it we can't research and trade something, as the civ with the GLib will get it instantly. With it, we would be bulking in cash for a while, which is mostly good if we want to military make a point in this game. I don't know, I guess Vox is going to be the most important part in this decision

FP: If we are going to build it manually (which I guess too, seeing our situation), I would wait until we can build or rush a courthouse. This can have a tremendous effect on the amount of turns it would take (together with the WLTKD which should be easy to reach). In that case, I wouldn't worry about it now, but would try to get it up and running somewhere near the jungle, as close to Vox as possible (which won't be very close anyway). If we ever get to democracy, we might keep the FP near us, while moving the palace to another continent, which will on the whole have more advantages then building the two this close to each other.

DeepO

	15-01-2003 23:23									#18
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Power graph conclusions:
I think I made a mistake last turn. When rereading the description, I saw that not only cities, gold, culture, wonders and military strength count, but two other things I totally forgot about.

1) advances
Does this mean research advances, or era advances? With enough commerce, it could be possible that Vox got IW when we got pottery (2710 BC), but I doubt it. That would be the only possible explanation why we didn't bumped the power in that year, instead of denting it. I don't believe this... it's too early for Vox to get it. So as long as we don't advance to the middle age, this doesn't count.
Comments please.

2) resources: If connected iron counts, it could explain one of the bumps in their graph: either the one 2 turns ago (when we built a warrior, and still lost in power), or the last one (when they got a bump, similar to a warrior). I'm uncertain how big a bump would be given for connecting iron... so it's quite impossible to find out how many warriors they have now.

Sir Ralph, would it be possible to look at the military advisor again? If we are strong, we should have 2 warriors more then them, while they have iron. If we're average, I can't say for sure they have iron or not. They could have rushed either a spear, or some warriors to compensate in power.

What ever is happening, it seems that they have resumed their research, and are not saving cash (anymore).

DeepO

	15-01-2003 23:33									#19
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F11 comment: notice that although we increased in productivity (26-->28), we dropped two places. It's quite likely that at least one civ has justed build another city (RPG?), and one is producing more due to increased population (lego have grown to size 3). Of course, we are more food-centered than others, so the productivity is for us mostly commerce, and not shields. But still, it says a lot about this game: others have nice starting positions too.

DeepO

	15-01-2003 23:40									#20
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Once we're sure we can defend it, if we're planning to take out Vox and the continent doesn't extend too much farther north than what we've heard about, #12 might make a good FP location. That would give us a FP fairly well centered on this continent, providing the option of using a leader to move our palace to another continent at some later date without destroying our core's value. And it's not so far from EotS that corruption will slow it to a crawl (at least not once we're out of Despotism and have a courthouse).

Nathan

	15-01-2003 23:46									#21
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Could someone point me to the formulas behind the F11 stats (or at least some explanation of what they represent)? I know this was posted some time ago, but I forget where...

Thanks.


Dominae

	15-01-2003 23:55									#22
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Dominae, anything in particular you're looking for? I know a few of them, but don't have any threads bookmarked with explanation... but apart from the population thing, they are relatively straigth forward.

DeepO

	16-01-2003 00:05									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO F11 comment: notice that although we increased in productivity (26-->28), we dropped two places. It's quite likely that at least one civ has justed build another city (RPG?), and one is producing more due to increased population (lego have grown to size 3). Of course, we are more food-centered than others, so the productivity is for us mostly commerce, and not shields. But still, it says a lot about this game: others have nice starting positions too.

Keep in mind that although we grew a pop this turn, the extra tile we're working as a result is an unimproved grassland (albeit by a river). That means odds are high that anyone else who gained a pop this turn would have gained ground on us in productivity. An extra laborer on a mined, roaded grassland with shield by a river, for example, would add three more productivity than our new laborer did. We'll be in better shape once we get another fur chopped and irrigated so Hurricane won't have to sacrifice production in favor of EotS.

Nathan

	16-01-2003 00:07									#24
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Maybe when you have the time you could post a brief description of the ones you know about here on the GS forum (for our own reference). I think I know a few of them as well, but I'm interested in the actual calculations (Population = # citizens + foodbox + Workers/Settlers?). No pressure though.


Dominae

	16-01-2003 00:16									#25
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I won't absolutely guarantee these, but I think the ones I don't express doubt in are right.

Happiness is an average with unhappy counting 0%, content 50%, and happy 100%.
I'm not sure about population, but I know it does take food toward the next growth into consideration.
GNP is total gold produced.
Mfg Goods is total shields.
Land area looks like 100 square miles per tile.
Skipping a few
Military service has to do with the size of the military relative to the size of the population, although I can't confirm whether or not it's an exact ratio.
I'm not sure about Annual Income.
Productivity is total gold+food surplus+shields.

	16-01-2003 00:17									#26
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True Nathan, but still... we're first in pop, and receding in position when growing is never very nice. I know it's only temporarily, but now is the only time when these graphs are going to say something. Once we get 1st and stay there, we have no indication on how the rest is doing.

Oh, BTW, how do you get to 3 more? I thought that an irrigated grassland near a river gave 2 more...

DeepO

	16-01-2003 00:23									#27
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Re: waiting for a courthouse to build the FP:

Well, maybe. I like to get a courthouse built prior to FP construction in SP, but bear two things in mind:

1) Depending on which tech route we choose, courthouses might be a looooong way away.
2) The difficulty level appears to be chieftain. With two luxuries, a temple and 2 mps, getting the city into WLTKD would take what, 1 entertainer (assuming corruption is such that luxury spending would have no effect on the city)?

The FP is 200 shields. A courthouse is 80, IIRC. If we have the tech, and can chop for at least part of those 80 shields, I'd agree wholeheartedly that the courthouse should come first. If not, however, it may be best to just do temple (10 turns, rush) and then FP, aiming for WLTKD at size 6 to help with waste.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 00:33									#28
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Thanks, Nathan. A little checking of my own seems to indicate that Settlers and Workers do not count towards the Population stat.

So, Productivity is a fair measure of how powerful a civ is overall, other than Score (which is an odd measure, IMO)?


Dominae

	16-01-2003 00:33									#29
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Our military compared to Vox is average.

	16-01-2003 00:37									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Oh, BTW, how do you get to 3 more? I thought that an irrigated grassland near a river gave 2 more...

A mined, roaded grassland with shield by a river generates 2 commerce and 2 shields. Our grassland generates 1 commerce and 0 shields. That's a difference in 3 in productivity. (Food is the same for both, of course.)