16-01-2003 06:57									#271
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Whoa, most Americans I know have an extensive interest in the company they work for and try to stay current with that business because work is everything and they want to know in advance whether cuts are coming, etc., etc.

	16-01-2003 07:33									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger No crud... But if (when?) you open borders now your mills are going to be facing some badasses up north, in addition to the sharks you've drawn in (Asian and Euro) with the scent of a protected market for the taking...

You are overdoing the analogy of working out. Yes there will be a dislocation when the markets open. But if anything, currently open markets would encourage more investment targeted at US markets. Capitalists don't invest perferentially in the hopes that the markets will open. To what ever extent they invest now (in the hopes of eventual opening), they would invest even more if it were free now. I would remind you that in CA and the US both, these markets are relatively competetive internally. So the mills will try to be competetive regardless. If CA has factor advantages that make them more competetive (like cheaper logs or more old growth forests or what have you) that is what will win the day for them, once the walls come down. Not a bunch of tough living and working out.

	16-01-2003 08:08									#273
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Biggest factor is actually currency, Gp. Which is what, IMO the tarriffs were actually targetted at...

	16-01-2003 08:59									#274
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I don't like the tarrif. It is bullshit. Especially against our maple leaf friends.

	16-01-2003 09:30									#275
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Great thread, AH. I have read all of it, except some of the obvious *****ing from both sides.

Ned, your first post, as well as all of Tass' and Spiff's last are the golden reads here.

Spiffor - one of your last points, that the US needs a Great Evil to oppose, makes a lot of sense to me. I am an NZer. We have no Great Evil Other to oppose. We are patriotic, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone chanting "Ki-wis!" outside of an International cricket, rugby or netball match. I have been in Oz for the last 9 weeks, and it is much the same here. And Oz is in a much closer situation to the US than NZ is. Oz has a larger army, and the Govt feels to some degree it has dominion over the Pacific (many of the islands are Oz-administered or closely aligned with Oz). Oz has separate States with their own governments and seems to be a lot more inward-looking than NZ. Yet the same things I have seen about America as a nation are not nearly mirrored here.

It deeply puzzles me why Americans can get so het up about some matters, and why American public opinion and more often American Government actions are so bizarre. I leave this thread at the moment believing the difference is in the way the world is shown to Americans: there is a Great Evil to be opposed at all times, and other news from outside of America is less emphasised, if it is there at all. Every other nation has to be more aware of overseas matters (at the very least what the US is doing at any one time), and thus their outlook is a lot less like many Americans'.

	16-01-2003 09:32									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Eh! We were once part of the British empire, the greatest empire the world has ever seen, and we were full British citizens, unlike the coloured colonies. Our MP's sat in the British parliament and took seats in Britain long after federation. Our Prime Minister was part of the British war cabinet. So f8ck you. We've been part of this world domination game a lot longer than you.

Can't find your own greatness so you hang onto the coattails, eh?

You are our ***** now Horsie.

	16-01-2003 10:47									#277
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Great thread, AH. I have read all of it, except some of the obvious *****ing from both sides. Ned, your first post, as well as all of Tass' and Spiff's last are the golden reads here. Spiffor - one of your last points, that the US needs a Great Evil to oppose, makes a lot of sense to me. I am an NZer. We have no Great Evil Other to oppose. We are patriotic, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone chanting "Ki-wis!" outside of an International cricket, rugby or netball match. I have been in Oz for the last 9 weeks, and it is much the same here. And Oz is in a much closer situation to the US than NZ is. Oz has a larger army, and the Govt feels to some degree it has dominion over the Pacific (many of the islands are Oz-administered or closely aligned with Oz). Oz has separate States with their own governments and seems to be a lot more inward-looking than NZ. Yet the same things I have seen about America as a nation are not nearly mirrored here. It deeply puzzles me why Americans can get so het up about some matters, and why American public opinion and more often American Government actions are so bizarre. I leave this thread at the moment believing the difference is in the way the world is shown to Americans: there is a Great Evil to be opposed at all times, and other news from outside of America is less emphasised, if it is there at all. Every other nation has to be more aware of overseas matters (at the very least what the US is doing at any one time), and thus their outlook is a lot less like many Americans'.

I don't think that is fundamental to the American character. It may be fundamental to the situation of a superpower. Although we seemed to manage fine from 1990-20001 without a EVIL to oppose. And even had a Bush Doctrine (continued by Clinton) which said our interests were diuffuse and varied over the world and that we were generally interested in promoting a world of free trade and democracy but that we no longer faced a main enemy. Also, I think that it was only after WW2 that we had a BIG enemy. So you are blowing recent events out of proportion. Because American attitudes predate WW2.

I've already said that it is MUCH more about the Revolutionary War, about the Pilgrims, about how we have made a hard and different break from the Old World ways. Those sorts of things are much more at the core of the American sense of pride.

	16-01-2003 12:37									#278
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The US had already developed a national mentality before the Red Scare. This mentality was very right wing, and the Puritans had something to do with that.

I don't know if non-Americans know about the Red Scare. In the last part of the 19th century and the early part of the 20th century the US got a lot of immigrants from Eastern and Southern Europe (including Germans). Many of these immigrants had very left wing ideas (Anarchist and Communists). The propertied class in this country was able to convince the poor in this country that the ideas of these immigrants were evil and that the immingrants were also evil. They spread a lot of propaganda about them and railroaded many of them for crimes they probably didn't commit. It's one of the ugliest periods in US history. Ever since this time left wing ideas are thought of as foreign and evil. Couple that with a century of right wing\anti-Communist propaganda and you have a very conservative society.

	16-01-2003 13:40									#279
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quote: Originally posted by GP I don't like the tarrif. It is bullshit. Especially against our maple leaf friends.

You're just being nice cause I smacked Horsie around...

	16-01-2003 13:49									#280
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GP:

Funny how you can get worked up about a little criticism of your share of stardust.

"1. Great one dude predicted it. Means alot?"

Just one example to add to what you've said.

"2. DeToqueville is not taught as a "simple glorification" of America. He does come up with some very apt analyses of the American spirit. And in general is impressed with it."

That was the 1830s when the US was the most progressive country. Today the US is the least progressive western country. I'd also say that today's political and social system is very different from 170 years ago, and I do not think attitudes are unchanged.

"Unlike you, who obsess about the US and our "glory" and good press and the like."

While I said differences are gradual, the US is to me the strangest western country. I find it quite interesting. If you feel jumped on the balls, that's your problem.

"BTW, you seem to be in the minority of business-minded young people in Europe. They were all vying for assignments in the US, when I worked in Germany and Swistzerland."

When was that ?

"Very little enthusiasm in reverse. I even heard lots of your countrymen who thought the US was far more dynamic and interesting in terms of business."

You obviously do not understand the Austrian mentality. (Well, nobody really does, not even us )

	16-01-2003 14:09									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger GP, when was the last time we had to call on you? And as to the rest of the West? "Never" for us, "WWII" for everybody else. Grow up, man. That was sixty years ago...

It would be nice if we could defend our borders today, but we cannot. We depend on the good will of the USofA for our continued illusion of sovereignty. Too bad, so sad, but your compatriots do not seem to want to vote for anything else...

	16-01-2003 14:12									#282
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NYE, do you mind telling me who besides the US has the wherewithal to violate our borders on a large scale?

	16-01-2003 14:13									#283
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And even the likeliest suspects are all our friends...

	16-01-2003 14:13									#284
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Oh, and btw, my brother is a logger on VCI. He has never been busier.

It seems the tarrifs have have a reverse impact in some places. The logging companies have decided they need to flood the American market even more with lumber to make a buck. So they are cutting and shipping more than before.

That does not happen everywhere, just in places with woods in demand. Go figure.

	16-01-2003 14:14									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger NYE, do you mind telling me who besides the US has the wherewithal to violate our borders on a large scale?

The Russians?

	16-01-2003 14:17									#286
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The Russians can barely even protect the borders they have. Could they wipe us out with a nuclear strike? Sure. Could they even put up a half-hearted invasion attempt? I doubt it. It's not like we even have to defend Alaska, the place they'd be most able to reach...

	16-01-2003 14:18									#287
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I'm practically more worried about the Chinese capabilities than the Russians'...

	16-01-2003 14:19									#288
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Aside from the fact that to maintain the illusion of sovereignty we would need to be able to defend our borders from the Americans.

Sort of rediculous, right? Yes, I agree. It is a good thing that things in NA are more advanced than they are anywhere else in the world. Here we have one continent with 3 nations. We all get along, more or less. Too bad not everyone is so blessed.

	16-01-2003 14:23									#289
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It's the same for small Western Euro nations. They can't defend themselves realistically against the only possible threat...but luckily for them that threat consists of their best friends (at least until the Germans start up trouble again).

	16-01-2003 14:29									#290
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That's just it Frogger, they no longer have sovereignty. They are *****es of the EU.

Thank some higher power that the US sees us as more useful than Belgium. Cause we can in no way defend ourselves by any way other than being useful, or they actually do respect other countries.

	16-01-2003 14:33									#291
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Anybody who violated our sovereignty would have to answer a hell of a lot of questions. And if you hadn't noticed, the small EU nations have managed to weasel more than their fair share of power in that organiztion. Belgium isn't the EU's *****; the EU is Belgium's *****...

	16-01-2003 14:38									#292
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So glad you entertain that illusion Frogger. I do not.

Fact is, the minute our government's fixation on healthcare drained our budget too much, and we were not quite cooperative enough in the struggle against terrorism, and our government became a liability in the defence of this continent...

I think there would be 60 states in the union and you would be very unhappy. So would I, just not as unhappy as you, I think.

	16-01-2003 14:40									#293
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Hah. Not a chance. The US isn't stupid enough, and you know it. We're white, we're industrialised, we're not Germans, therefore nobody can **** with us in that way.

	16-01-2003 14:41									#294
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(Except the Germans)

	16-01-2003 14:42									#295
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You rely too much on yesterday's rules.

Live with tomorrow.

	16-01-2003 14:44									#296
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What would you do? Spend 20% of our GDP on defence to provide a credible counter to American power? Please...

	16-01-2003 14:48									#297
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Can you say Canadianization (Finlandization)...

Now, how bad are those bad guys when we are still independent after all these years? I'd say they are rather harmless if they do not feel threatened.

	16-01-2003 14:49									#298
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's just it Frogger, they no longer have sovereignty. They are *****es of the EU.

Bah. Souveränität im Verfassungsverbund!

	16-01-2003 15:02									#299
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither It would be nice if we could defend our borders today, but we cannot. We depend on the good will of the USofA for our continued illusion of sovereignty. Too bad, so sad, but your compatriots do not seem to want to vote for anything else...

Illusion? Why is it an illusion? Do we not set our own laws and policies that often run counter to what the Americans want and do?

How would a different vote change anything?

You seem to acknowledge that Canada does not have the resources to stop an American invasion. Or do you think that with a different government, we could create a military capable of stopping the Americans?

	16-01-2003 15:05									#300
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Get nuclear weapons. Works for Kimmy.