15-01-2003 14:13									#211
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"So you are admitting that you can't match our obsessiveness?"

Well there's the Brit obsession with "ze war", and the german obsession with whining... probably it's not unusual, just more annoying to the outisder (while the german for example creates some funny perceptions by Americans).

	15-01-2003 15:01									#212
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I think part of the American obsession with competitiveness comes from being a rather new player internationally. For most Americans a connection to the larger world is a phenomena of the last hundred years, and one which wasn't particularly strong until the second world war. The Cold War added a lot of fuel to that fire, as both the Russians and Americans sought to outdo each other in every possible sphere in order to bring more glory to their respective causes. Instead of being an outsider, America was involved to a very high degree in places that most Americans didn't even know existed previously.

For most people here it may seem strange that for Americans being a player internationally is a relatively new thing, but consider the fact that it often takes a lot of time for news events to have an impact on the average man. For my Great Grandparents WW2 was a big event, but not one that reshaped their consciousness. Their memories were of the Wild West, Indians, farming, ranching and the Great Depression. For my grandparents generation WW2 was the single largest event in their outlook. They were generally ignorant of the world as a whole, except the places that they fought. Their experiences of the larger and strange world made them hew much more closely to the idea of nationalism, as it was one of the few things that was familiar and comfortable in a world at war. For my parent's generation the larger world was more familiar, but colored by the perceptions of the paranoic phase of the Cold War and the general reduction of stature that the Western Europeans had in that new world.

My generation grew up with a mature Cold War and a familiarity with hot spots around the world and political involvement on every continent. Contrary to Frogger's impressions, this was not a conflict relegated to the sphere of the mind only, nor were the means of that war generally out of step with its potential consequences. I do hope that some decent histories of this huge and long conflict come out, as I fear that many of those who are part of the generation following mine (who btw make up a majority of posters here) are not nearly as knowledgeable about the Cold War as they are about WW2, or WW1 for that matter. It may not have all that much major power combat, but it was the largest war in the history of mankind if you measure such things by the numbers of people involved across the span of 50 years. It was a war of shadows in many respects, and I hope that enough people come forward with their experiences and record them before time distorts the whole thing in the absence of evidence.

	15-01-2003 15:36									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Canada never went running to the US to protect it during the Cold War. In fact, the US was the one who was asking Canada and other Nato nations to help. I can't recall anytime when the other Nato nations asked the US to contribute more.

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker So many places I could with that one.

I thought for sure someone would bite. I got to work on my baiting skills.

	15-01-2003 15:41									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I think part of the American obsession with competitiveness comes from being a rather new player internationally. For most Americans a connection to the larger world is a phenomena of the last hundred years, and one which wasn't particularly strong until the second world war. ... For most people here it may seem strange that for Americans being a player internationally is a relatively new thing, but consider the fact that it often takes a lot of time for news events to have an impact on the average man.

I would have thought that the vast majority of American cannot remember a time when the US was a minor player on the world scene. The US position as a superpower is taken for granted. Almost every American I meet perceives the US as the policeman of the world.

	15-01-2003 16:10									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I would have thought that the vast majority of American cannot remember a time when the US was a minor player on the world scene. The US position as a superpower is taken for granted. Almost every American I meet perceives the US as the policeman of the world.

That is true, but you have to remember that this sort of stuff takes time to filter into the consciousness. We learn a lot from our parents for instance, both facts and more importantly values and to some degree perspectives. For my grandparents the depression had a lot more impact on them than the Cold War, even though the depression only lasted a dozen or so years while the Cold War lasted 50. They didn't seem to give a damn about political ideologies, only Christianity. My parents were far more political, and a lot more aware of the world at large, especially where the Cold War touched that world. I feel that my generation was the first raised almost entirely within the framework of the new reality, as both my own experiences as well as those of my parents took into account the full extent of the U.S. position in the world.

Of course I am 41 years old, which makes me an old man on this forum, so you are probably correct about the average American's level of awareness of the situation. But keep in mind that today's CEOs and policy makers are generally my age and older, so that their perceptions carry more weight in policy decisions of all sorts.

	15-01-2003 16:30									#216
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Sikander:

"I think part of the American obsession with competitiveness comes from being a rather new player internationally... The Cold War added a lot of fuel to that fire, as both the Russians and Americans sought to outdo each other in every possible sphere in order to bring more glory to their respective causes."

I don't think it is about competitiveness as there is no serious attempt to compete, just to claim superiority. That can be quite odd, like the incessant hyping of GAAP (which curiously ended about a year ago). Or there is a general unwillingness to seriously consider and learn from alternative legal systems - criticism of the US system is then connected with a comparison of a bizarre caricature of foreign systems (or more funnily, a US lawyer telling me that federalism is unique to the US ).

"I feel that my generation was the first raised almost entirely within the framework of the new reality, as both my own experiences as well as those of my parents took into account the full extent of the U.S. position in the world."

If that is the case, then why is it that US media, politicians, pundits etc usually present a totally unrealistic picture of that position ?

	15-01-2003 16:38									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander You'll never know.

Eh! We were once part of the British empire, the greatest empire the world has ever seen, and we were full British citizens, unlike the coloured colonies. Our MP's sat in the British parliament and took seats in Britain long after federation. Our Prime Minister was part of the British war cabinet. So f8ck you. We've been part of this world domination game a lot longer than you.

	15-01-2003 18:02									#218
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I think that you forget the Brits.

About the War on Terrorism.
I was unaware that Britain is for the War on Terrorism. AFAIK, that's just Blair. If Iraq manages to get through Parliament, I'll be very surprised.

	15-01-2003 18:35									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Parts of Detroit look like the third world (and Libya has a lower infant mortality rate than Detroit). And hardly any of us for would swap their health system for what you have.

You don't know what you're talking about. Parts of detroit don't look like the third world- Parts of detroit look like a post-apocalypic dystopian nightmare. You really should visit these places before you spout off.

At any rate, our particular hellhole has more music and culture than your entire pissant country combined.

	15-01-2003 18:50									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger It's obvious that being good friends doesn't make them give a damn about trade concerns, so what's in it for us?

We won the lumber fight over lumber before the WTO. Let it go.

Drogue: Read a few posts down to find out what I was talking about in the post you quote.

	15-01-2003 18:54									#221
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"We won the lumber fight before the WTO."

You did ? This time I have to ask, "link?"

	15-01-2003 19:12									#222
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You did ? This time I have to ask, "link?"

Scroll down to "WTO Adopts Report Upholding U.S. Position on Canadian Lumber Subsidies:" http://www.usembassy.it/file2002_11/alia/a2110105.htm

	15-01-2003 19:21									#223
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"The WTO panel report that was adopted today addresses only the August 9, 2001, U.S. preliminary countervailing duty determination.... In addition to this WTO proceeding, Canada has also contested the U.S. decision on final countervailing duties that was announced in May 2002. That proceeding is now underway."

So you partly won the minor of two cases.

	15-01-2003 19:27									#224
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler So you partly won the minor of two cases.

I think we differ on which is the minor of the two cases.

	15-01-2003 22:32									#225
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quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave You don't know what you're talking about. Parts of detroit don't look like the third world- Parts of detroit look like a post-apocalypic dystopian nightmare. You really should visit these places before you spout off. At any rate, our particular hellhole has more music and culture than your entire pissant country combined.

I spent a alot of time there when I worked for CP rail.
It was like being IN fallout2. He should visit there, with
a guide. It's a very vibrant place and a hell lot more fun
than anywhere i've been in Canada, hell of alot more
dangerous than anywhere i've been in Canada too.
I think there is a connection here.

Your right about the music and culture, if you leave out
the Maritimes.

	15-01-2003 22:38									#226
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According to recent studies, American mindset is closer to that of Turks and Indians than that of Swedes and Germans.

	15-01-2003 22:39									#227
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Too conservative.

	15-01-2003 23:24									#228
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Wow, a 12 page thread about Americans being different than other Westerners. Of course, only a couple of those pages actually dealt with the question. The rest was arguing over WWII and the Cold War.

The argument over the Cold War illustates something, though. Part of it is generational, and has little to do with nationality. The other part, however, I think does mark a difference between Americans and the rest of "the West." Sikander explained the generational bit pretty well: my generation grew up as the Cold War was ending, and thus doesn't see it in the same way as those who lived through it. That doesn't make our perceptions wrong necessarily, but it's something to keep in mind. Part II, though, is that Americans tend to take the Cold War (aka the fight against Communism) more seriously than other Westerners. Part of that is ideological, in that the US is the most capitalistic of the Western nations (hell, we were the standard bearer for capitalism during the CW). Our country spent a lot of time, effort, and blood fighting to "contain" communism. Thus it is seen as a central, pivotal conflict. And, based upon the aforementioned ideology, we feel our country did the world a service.

It seems to me that other Westerners don't see it as being that important (Frogger/Kitty is the case in point). They don't frown on communism the way we tend to, being more socialistic than us. Increasingly it seems, people look at the USA and USSR as simply the primary opponents in a dangerous game, with no moral judgements of the two sides (or roughly equal moral judgement of each side). Whether or not that is "right" isn't my point. I'm just making an observation.

That's just one difference. There are a helluva lot more.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 01:29									#229
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The Cold War was a contest of ideologies, not of nations. The communists believed their system was best and would inherit the Earth. The United States believed democracy was the best and should inherit the Earth. We battled across the globe for nearly fifty years until the USSR collapsed in the wake of Afghanistan, its arms race with the US and the democracy movement in Poland aided by a Polish pope.

The Cold War was, to us, a battle of good versus evil. We, of course, were the good guys.

As we lead the struggle for so long, it is no wonder that we remain fearful of extreme leftism – after all, it was our enemy for 50 years. Countries other than the US had no such exaggerated fear. In fact, they had the opposite fear – of extreme rightists -- stemming from WWII.

Perhaps this explains why the US and the rest of the West are today miles apart in basic ideology.

	16-01-2003 01:58									#230
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Part of the problem is that because we were faced with the USSR (and the PRC to a lesser extent), we see communism as equalling totalitarianism. Personally, I think that the controlled economics of communism essentially requires totalitarian government, but many don't see it that way.

Anyway, my point is that it was a battle of capitalism vs. communism, not necessarily democracy vs. totalitarianism. The capitalist side was also democratic, and the communist side was totalitarian. The US, being democratic and capitalist, tends to portray the two systems (one economic, the other political) as essentially one and the same.

One is about economic freedom (over economic equality), the other about political freedom. So I think the rest of the West (man are we generalizing or what?) may seperate the two more than we do. They also don't tend to get into calling things "evil."

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 02:10									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Anyway, my point is that it was a battle of capitalism vs. communism, not necessarily democracy vs. totalitarianism. The capitalist side was also democratic, and the communist side was totalitarian.

I don't see how it could be about democracy vs totalitarianism, given the number of despotic regimes that were propped up because they opposed communism, and democratic regimes that were overthrown because they were "communist".

	16-01-2003 02:16									#232
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That's what I mean.

I'm saying that Americans tend to see it as Demo vs. Total partly because that's the way the US gov't portrayed it. I also think we see it that way because I believe that communism pretty much has to be totalitarian (but capitalism can function under any political system) and I think many (if not most) Americans would agree with that assessment, right or wrong.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 02:18									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian One is about economic freedom (over economic equality), the other about political freedom. So I think the rest of the West (man are we generalizing or what?) may seperate the two more than we do. They also don't tend to get into calling things "evil."

I agree. Europeans seperate economic freedom and politcal freedom much more than the Americans. Indeed, I don't see Libertarian Socialism as a contradiction. I think part of the desire to brand things "evil" more in America stems somewhat from the religious aspect, throughout history, and somewhat from popularity of 'conservative' morals. But then, as a non-American, I could be wrong on that.

	16-01-2003 02:23									#234
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Yeah, I think some of our rhetoric can be blamed on the Puritans. When in doubt, blame them. They did some bad ****.

We are (unfortunately, IMO) more a more religious nation than the rest of the West.

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 03:15									#235
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler A french guy who's rather to the left (can't remember the name, need to look it up) predicted the fall of the Berlin wall within the next 25 years in 1977. He has a new book out about America in decline, should be an interesting read. Read Tocqueville many years ago, maybe I should read it again. I didn't quite get why many Americans see his writings as a simple glorification of their country. Drake: "The US hasn't joined these protocols, however, so their requirements have no bearing on this issue. America still works off the more restricitve 1949 standards." Don't know your ratification standings, but most of this is customary international law anyway, and you are bound by it unless you can claim persistent objector status. Ad abortion: Oddly enough, to my knowledge the US is the only western country that has a constitutional right for women to have an abortion (created by the SC out of thin air). In other countries abortion was legalized by the legislature, and court challanges were about that being a violation of the right to life - ie the exact opposite of Roe v Wade. Ad topic: Most differences between Americans and other Westerners are really just gradual. Take gun control - I could get a firearm with varying degrees of hazzle, that should be comparable to the more restrictive states in the US. What really sets the Yanks apart and highlights the differences is the american obsession with being nr 1 in everything, no matter how absurd a specific claim is. I still don't understand that obsession.

1. Great one dude predicted it. Means alot? No. I can come up with a couple more. Regardless, it was not the prevailing view in the late 70's that the Soviet Union would be dismembered soon. (On the right or left.) Yes, there were people (on the right!) who said that the SU would eventually implode. But that was not what people were worried about at that time.

2. DeToqueville is not taught as a "simple glorification" of America. He does come up with some very apt analyses of the American spirit. And in general is impressed with it. Unlike you, who obsess about the US and our "glory" and good press and the like. And haven't ever even visited the country of your strange obsession.

	16-01-2003 03:22									#236
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Sikander: "I think part of the American obsession with competitiveness comes from being a rather new player internationally... The Cold War added a lot of fuel to that fire, as both the Russians and Americans sought to outdo each other in every possible sphere in order to bring more glory to their respective causes." I don't think it is about competitiveness as there is no serious attempt to compete, just to claim superiority. That can be quite odd, like the incessant hyping of GAAP (which curiously ended about a year ago). Or there is a general unwillingness to seriously consider and learn from alternative legal systems - criticism of the US system is then connected with a comparison of a bizarre caricature of foreign systems (or more funnily, a US lawyer telling me that federalism is unique to the US ).

You are the one who obsesses over every slight, real or imagined...and has never even visited the object of your concern. BTW, you seem to be in the minority of business-minded young people in Europe. They were all vying for assignments in the US, when I worked in Germany and Swistzerland. Very little enthusiasm in reverse. I even heard lots of your countrymen who thought the US was far more dynamic and interesting in terms of business. (And I don't need to bother hyping them...I've got too much restraint to tout my country when I am overseas.)

	16-01-2003 03:24									#237
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I initially thought that AH actually wanted to discuss the nature of the American spirit. But I see that the thread is just a typical anti-US ***** session.

Oh well, go read de Toqueville if you want some more serious stuff to think about Horsie.

	16-01-2003 03:26									#238
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Occasionally, however, a couple of people who DO wish to discuss a worthy topic can manage to rescue a troll thread. Just a thought...

-Arrian

	16-01-2003 03:32									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Americans could stand to learn a lot from Euros, Canucks, Aussies, and Kiwis. And Euros, Canucks, Aussies, and Kiwis could stand to learn a lot from Americans. Of course, I acknowledge that this would require an end to the all the posturing and blaming and arrogance and generalized *****-waving that occurs on both sides, which is as likely an occurance as George W. Bush winning the Nobel Prize for Physics.

Sometimes, I hate being right.

	16-01-2003 03:37									#240
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'Tis True though. We both could learn a lot. Europeans and Americans. At least if we all stopped thinking we were the best, and no other idea can work.