15-01-2003 09:05									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Right, and I'm saying the fear was unjustified. Can't really take credit for saving Europe from a threat which wasn't there in the first place, and which you did your best to create paranoia about.

Was it justified or unjustified is completely irrelevant for the present discussion. What is relevant is that it was perceived as a threat, and the US involvement was perceived as a reliable umbrella against that threat. Perception is all that matters for the purposes of the present discussion.

	15-01-2003 09:08									#92
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quote: Originally posted by GP So? Those guys are wrong. What do you expect. They all watch our movies, follow our trends, etc. We must be doing something right. Why should we change and be all namby-pamby.

They watch your movies (and ours, LOTR! Yay!) and follow some of your trends. Each place has a way of coming up with its own stuff or twists on US imports though.

Why shouldn't we like your movies? Some of them are even good. That doesn't mean that we want to adopt your social system. Those that do probably watch American sitcoms in which even the working class appear to be rich (they don't realise the truth). You guys are poor. I mean there are plenty of mega rich people in the US and lots of merely rich people, but when you get down to the lower half things don't look so pretty. Parts of Detroit look like the third world (and Libya has a lower infant mortality rate than Detroit). And hardly any of us for would swap their health system for what you have.

Look, its your country, you can do what you like - but why should we have it that way? As someone else said - "No thanks"

	15-01-2003 09:11									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Go Als!

GO LEAFS GO!

	15-01-2003 09:15									#94
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Was it justified or unjustified is completely irrelevant for the present discussion. What is relevant is that it was perceived as a threat, and the US involvement was perceived as a reliable umbrella against that threat. Perception is all that matters for the purposes of the present discussion.

Not when the US was instrumental in creating that perception, and that perception was largely absent from the minds of Europeans.

	15-01-2003 09:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger We've dealt with Republicans before. For 75% of the last 30 years we've dealt with Republicans. We've never dealt with this kind of Republican, though. And the Euros have real problems with him too. I'm referring both to his interesting take on world affairs and his 19th century view of tarriff policies, by the way. Both of which were becoming evident before terrorist attacks. He seemed more comfortable dealing with 3rd world despots than with leaders of industrialised countries. Perception is that he can't stand dealing with anybody who'll ask him to compromise.

Booshwa. It's the same dynamic as with Reagan. They think he's a cowboy. Don't like his politics or his straight-speaking comments. It's almost identical. There was all kind of buttlock when Reagan called USSR "an evil empire". (Although I had a Polish cabbie in Zurich who had lived under communism and thought it was the greatest thing ever that REagan said that.)

	15-01-2003 09:17									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon They watch your movies (and ours, LOTR! Yay!) and follow some of your trends. Each place has a way of coming up with its own stuff or twists on US imports though. Why shouldn't we like your movies? Some of them are even good. That doesn't mean that we want to adopt your social system. Those that do probably watch American sitcoms in which even the working class appear to be rich (they don't realise the truth). You guys are poor. I mean there are plenty of mega rich people in the US and lots of merely rich people, but when you get down to the lower half things don't look so pretty. Parts of Detroit look like the third world (and Libya has a lower infant mortality rate than Detroit). And hardly any of us for would swap their health system for what you have. Look, its your country, you can do what you like - but why should we have it that way? As someone else said - "No thanks"

I'm not trying to make you change!! It's AH and crowd who always feel annoyed that we are so different.

	15-01-2003 09:18									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon They watch your movies (and ours, LOTR! Yay!) and follow some of your trends. Each place has a way of coming up with its own stuff or twists on US imports though. Why shouldn't we like your movies? Some of them are even good. That doesn't mean that we want to adopt your social system. Those that do probably watch American sitcoms in which even the working class appear to be rich (they don't realise the truth). You guys are poor. I mean there are plenty of mega rich people in the US and lots of merely rich people, but when you get down to the lower half things don't look so pretty. Parts of Detroit look like the third world (and Libya has a lower infant mortality rate than Detroit). And hardly any of us for would swap their health system for what you have. Look, its your country, you can do what you like - but why should we have it that way? As someone else said - "No thanks"

I am not rich at all

and not really even middle class (lower middle class if I am that)

but I really need nothing (sure, there are things I would like, but I am fine)

Jon Miller
where is someone with statistics

	15-01-2003 09:23									#98
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What did you get banned for, Milla?

	15-01-2003 09:25									#99
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when I got banned?

a thread whre the question was asked

if your SO became a paraplegic, would you continue sexual relations with them?

I am not sure if Ming really banned me, because I basically left and did not try to post for 2 days (which was the duration of the Ban)

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 09:27									#100
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that is really awkwardly worded, oh well

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 09:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Not when the US was instrumental in creating that perception, and that perception was largely absent from the minds of Europeans.

Certainly, the US did its best to augment that perception. But the perception was already there initially. You can't seriously claim that it was largely absent.

	15-01-2003 09:28									#102
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quote: I think Sava has a point.

Ned said this. January 14th, 2003.

	15-01-2003 09:30									#103
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Certainly, the US did its best to augment that perception. But the perception was already there initially. You can't seriously claim that it was largely absent.

Yes I can. By the 70s, it was.

	15-01-2003 09:34									#104
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quote: Originally posted by GP Booshwa. It's the same dynamic as with Reagan. They think he's a cowboy. Don't like his politics or his straight-speaking comments. It's almost identical. There was all kind of buttlock when Reagan called USSR "an evil empire". (Although I had a Polish cabbie in Zurich who had lived under communism and thought it was the greatest thing ever that REagan said that.)

A Pole would always cheer the idea that the USSR/Russia is an evil empire, whatever are the circumstances and whoever said that.

	15-01-2003 09:34									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Not when the US was instrumental in creating that perception, and that perception was largely absent from the minds of Europeans.

Unfortunately reality and common sense were largely absent from the minds of Europeans too. Having been the centre of two World Wars, having had neutral, undefended nations run over roughshod during both, they then went ahead with disarming yet again as soon as it was over - completely ignoring the SU as an emerging major military power and a very real threat.
The US saw it as yet another WW in the making and didn't want to have to clean up after Europe yet again hence fueled the fire so to speak.
I rather doubt Europe would be in nearly as good a shape as its in now if they hadn't.

	15-01-2003 09:38									#106
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond A Pole would always cheer the idea that the USSR/Russia is an evil empire, whatever are the circumstances and whoever said that.

And he'd be right. Hungary, Czech, etc. etc. etc.

	15-01-2003 09:38									#107
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Maybe the Soviet Union was an "Evil Empire", but to call three basket case countries an "Axis of Evil" was just silly and unecessarily provocative.

Both sounded like characters from "Star Wars" when he said that - just as silly as John McCain waving that toy lightsaber.

That's what made us cringe - British politicians don't say things like this - they do more wholesome things like die during S & M orgies or engage in covert transvestism or drug abuse.

Anyway, Reagan was an idiot and Bush II is a moron (a Canadian said so, it must be true - they're so honest they don't even steal). No one said that about Clinton or Bush senior, because they didn't appear to be mentally defective.

I did get a kick out of Bush Sr barfing all over that Japanese dignitary though.


Actually, I have a question. Who are the Americans supposed to be protecting Europe from? The Russians?!?

	15-01-2003 09:41									#108
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But do you agree that it is the same dynamic as with Reagan? They don't like his right wing politics and his outspokenness.

	15-01-2003 09:43									#109
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Bush is like Reagan, but worse.

	15-01-2003 09:43									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon

BTW, do you think I have Berz pinned to the wall well enough? He blows my mind with arguing about what we discussed?!?! All I have to do is go back, find the stuff and produce it. And show he's wrong. (Of course that is an inane thing to be discussing...but still he brings it up.)

	15-01-2003 09:44									#111
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People came here to bring the best of the West and leave the worst of it behind, and in the process also created something new that didn't exist anywhere else.

USA! USA! USA!!!

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	15-01-2003 09:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Bush is like Reagan, but worse.

I'll take that as "yes...it's the same dynamic."

	15-01-2003 09:45									#113
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quote: Originally posted by GP And he'd be right. Hungary, Czech, etc. etc. etc.

It's simply that communism didn't work out, not that the USSR was particularly evil as an empire.

	15-01-2003 09:47									#114
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quote: Originally posted by GP I'll take that as "yes...it's the same dynamic."

But more exaggerated, dear...

	15-01-2003 09:47									#115
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond It's simply that communism didn't work out, not that the USSR was particularly evil as an empire.

Tell that to the people killed in those crackdowns. Tell that to the people who lived in a jail (with a wall and armed guards shooting people who tried to leave.)

	15-01-2003 09:48									#116
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Americans are different because we still haven't sold our personal freedoms for safety and health provided by the government (at least not yet).

	15-01-2003 09:49									#117
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Hah. Your police have frightening powers, but you haven't sold your freedom? I'll bear that in mind.

	15-01-2003 09:51									#118
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If Reagan and Bush II are idiots, it's a genious idiocy.

	15-01-2003 09:52									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger But more exaggerated, dear...

Good enough.

	15-01-2003 10:00									#120
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quote: Originally posted by GP Cold War.

Canada never went running to the US to protect it during the Cold War. In fact, the US was the one who was asking Canada and other Nato nations to help. I can't recall anytime when the other Nato nations asked the US to contribute more.