16-01-2003 03:05									#31
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not necessarily. IIRC, the russians are looking for soldiers. Wouldn't want to be a Russian soldier though, these days. they beat their soldiers up. Plus, they're looking for veterans.

	16-01-2003 03:09									#32
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Mercenary companies are a little bit different. They can be honorable too, but sometimes they're not. I give you that much. But they can do a good job too.

Mercs are individuals most of the times, they find each other in the place of action, group themselves and go offer their services. Every merc is a different person. Some are bad, some are not, but certainly most of them are useful in the war.
Look, not everyone is looking for 8-5 job with 30 days paid leave in a year. Some people think they need to do something for various of reasons. They think they can make a difference in that way and that way only. They want to do something with their lives that is out of the ordinary. They don't give a crap about secure jobs, house, car and a fence. They're not people who think 'what if'. Certainly they are not all bad. Fighting is fighting, some people fight for the other side, some with the others. Some people want the money, some people want to sleep their nights and choose with their conscious.

What do you think of our jaegars? They went to Germany, secretly, to learn how to fight. They went to Nazis to learn how to fight. Then they came back here, to teach others too. They had a deal. They were mercs in a way too. Some of them even fought in the ranks of Germans, to be able to fight the Soviets. Now, one of our most famous war heroes, Lauri Törni, aka Larry Thorne, went to Germany to fight the Soviets after we had lost the winter war. Just because he wanted to fight the enemy. After that he was pretty much jailed, but he escaped and went to the US. He then joined their army and went fighting in Vietnam, for 2 tours and became a legend in there too. Do you think he was a rotten person, lowest scum of the earth? Some people think he was. Certainly Soviets and perhaps Vietnamese thought so too. I think he was a hero.

edit: and people who commit atrocities are war criminals, mercs or regulars. I wouldn't go and make any difference between them. To some people it doesn't matter where you fight, it only matters who you fight, or who you fight with, and possibly what you can make out of it.
Soldiers is always someones enemy, always.. and someones buddy. It's like saying 'Karate is bad, because oyu learn it to kick random people in the head'. Well not exactly the same, but I'm saying you can't know peoples motivations.

Last edited by Pekka on 16-01-2003 at 03:24

	16-01-2003 03:31									#33
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The difference with being a merc is that one basically wants to go and kill other people for the action's own sake. Why don't you become a UN peacekeeper or something, there's plenty of chance for action, and it's in a well regulated military, and you might just end up doing some good.

As for Törni, I don't have a particularly high respect for the man. First he volunteers for the SS, then after the armistice he goes back to the Nazis, to prepare a resistance movement just in case Finland gets invaded anyway (sounds like some relative of the Werewolf organisation to me). After two escapes from captivity (British POW camp and Finnish jail, respectively) and a pardon, he finally reaches the US, where he joins the US military volunteers several times for missions in faraway countries, including Iran and Vietnam, where he died.
Sounds like an adrenaline junkie at least, but one with the presence of mind to join a real army. Too bad he was so cozy with the Nazis.

	16-01-2003 03:33									#34
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Ok, I'll give more depth to my personal needs, and I don't mean to offend anyone, or to reveal myself to you too much. There are more to me than this.

I hate killing. I hate war. But I will kill if it is absolutely necessary. To save someone elses life, or mine. The difference is, I don't really care if the enemy is coming over the borders of my country. It is necessary to fight the enemy where the enemy is. Sure, you can always say they're not my personal enemies, what have they done to me.. but that's where we differ. I don't think that way. See that Estonia vs China example. I'm also fighting for my buddy, I don't care if they don't like me or think me as their friend. It matters to me what I think.
Early fight is the best fight. I'm not all for pre-emptive strikes, it sounds kind of.. bad.
If someone attacks Finland, I'll fight for us, no matter who the enemy is, even if it's Greenland. I don't care.
Outside Finland I get to choose who I fight, with more conscious. I get to fight the enemy I want to, the enemy that I have personal problems with. THis does not mean I'd go eat NK babies if I see one in Helsinki. I fight only enemies who are fighting too. Can't you see my point? .

	16-01-2003 03:39									#35
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I suspect you aren't going to have much of a future in the merc business then, unless you are willing to go pretty much anywhere for your buck and do pretty much anything to be around to use the buck.

If you do go and fight wherever you feel you must, the most likely fate for you is that you'll end up dead in an haphazard volunteer unit in your conflict of choice, because the country you're fighting in won't give a crap.

	16-01-2003 03:43									#36
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As a typical employment example, are you willing to go to a South American country for protecting a gun running operation to arm indigenous paramilitaries in an anti-drug operation?

	16-01-2003 03:44									#37
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Jaakko, yes, but how can you consider him as a true Nazi? I think if the people in US thoght so, he wouldn't have had the chance to go up in their ranks too.
He was a fighter, who wanted to fight the enemy, where ever, when ever. He didn't join the Nazis because he wanted to kill Jews, or liked the Nazi ideology. He joined in, because he couldn't fight the Soviets in our ranks anymore. He wanted to continue fighting, he still considered them as enemy. He just didn't give up so easily. He didn't go kill random soldiers from our borders, he joined a real army, ok Nazi one. But he went to eastern front. Of course this was fighting against allied, but HIS point was fighting the Soviets, his own enemy.
He had a view of things close to mine. Fight the personal enemy where ever it is. It's not typical Finnish point of view though. I think our official view is pretty good. It's just not for me.

I really thought of just going to do some peace keeping for the UN. I have few friends who have gone through it. Now, it's not that simple. They can't do everything. Their power is very limited. Are they doing good? Sure, for some people. You always have lots of peace keepers, especially from Finland. Can you make a difference? Not really. There's nothing personal in there.
As a merc, I WOULD BE helping some people. The Swedish volunteers in here are heroes to me. They didn't have to fight, however they choose to fight with us, for us. I don't think they got paid that much either if at all. Look, I don't need the money, I can volunteer also. I don't want to be a merc, I want to fight for legal govs. I want to fight for the US mostly. I wouldn't want to go kick some asses in Somalia for example, but I'd love to get some action in Iraq or NK.

	16-01-2003 03:45									#38
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Jaakko, I don't believe war in drugs. I don't like drugs, but I don't believe in the war, so no.

	16-01-2003 03:48									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko I suspect you aren't going to have much of a future in the merc business then, unless you are willing to go pretty much anywhere for your buck and do pretty much anything to be around to use the buck. If you do go and fight wherever you feel you must, the most likely fate for you is that you'll end up dead in an haphazard volunteer unit in your conflict of choice, because the country you're fighting in won't give a crap.

Most likely if I choose this path. I don't think it's all that bad though. I'm not looking love from my employer. Nor acceptance. It's enough for me to know that I'm doing something I believe in, that I died for something I thought was good enough to die for. That doesn't mean I want to die . But I think it's better to die in battle you believe, fighting the enemy, than having a stroke in your 80s, having not contributed to the world. And no, making code for some IT-company does not count in my views.

	16-01-2003 03:48									#40
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We already have a foreign legion. It's called the IDF.

	16-01-2003 03:51									#41
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I'm not saying that Törni was an outright Nazi, only that he had curiously little trouble helping them.

Then how about a job for on the behalf of an African government with interests in a diamond mining outfit, that wants you to train and lead a bunch of locals to clear out the troublesome villagers that are making a stink over the way the diamond business is ran?

	16-01-2003 03:57									#42
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Jaakko, Muhammed Ali said he wouldn't fight in Vietnam because Vietnamese had done nothing to him personally, and was not his enemy. I don't feel the same way. I believe in solidarity, to help your friend. I think the best way to show your solidarity to friend is to step next to him and take everything that's coming, and give back.

	16-01-2003 04:03									#43
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Sure, Törni did help some Nazis, but so did every Finn in the war in a way if you really think about it. Of course we disagree, since we didn't have choicese, and fought only one front. However, Törni wasn't thinking of helping Nazis or their cause (maybe), he was thinking about fighting the Soviets at that time.

and to answer that diamond question, maybe, if the government is good in my opinion and fair and for the people. And if I'd see the troublesome villagers really being enemies to the government, and they are warned. Sure. If they pay me enough for it. But if the troublesome villagers are pretty much innocent of bad stuff, then I would nto fight them, or train people to fight them. If they become more like guerillas, fighting legal gov with good intensions, then yes I'd fight them. If that's the last option though, I think a white boy like me would be a nice target in Africa .

	16-01-2003 04:03									#44
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Then that's another reason for you to avoid mercs, they have no such worries. It's all about the money.

Or would you like to go for a nice little invasion of a Pacific island, to kill the separatists that took over a copper mine that was very profitable for the government, but who couldn't quite get enough approval for an invasion with regular forces?

	16-01-2003 04:12									#45
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I don't want to be merc. I just disagree that all mercs are bad and for the money ONLY. But I think it as a last option.. I still get to choose my side. And make money out of it. It's my decision why I fight, and nobody elses.
So if the cause is good, and I can make money out of it, I see no problems. And it's not about hero status, because that one I won't ever get. I just want to do something for me and if it helps someone else, that's good. Me, me me me! I won't go against my beliefs however. But no, I don't want to be a merc, I want to be a soldier. But if no one can offer me that, well I just have to go freelance.

Someone could talk about the topic also?

Jaakko, what do you think about the original idea?

	16-01-2003 04:27									#46
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Jaakko, come on , tell me what you think about the original idea, and pros and cons. You managed to do a massive threadjack, now contribute to the original thread, please .

And note, that I don't completely disagree with you. I respect your views, we both hate the same criminals you're talking about. Only thing is, I think there is honorable way to do it too. You might think of me as a war junkie, action junkie etc. who wants to fight his enemies and willing to do some travelling, willing to kill enemies when they're not directly threatning me.
I think I'd be fighting enemies that ARE threatning me and my buddies, and other people are just too lazy to do travelling and fighting. Maybe they appreciate their property too much? What are their values? Are they not willing to die for their beliefs, and if not, is their lives worth even living?

	16-01-2003 04:30									#47
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Make no mistake, mercs didn't get their reputation for nothing. The tiny minority of decent (but misguided) people found in their ranks are no excuse to not condemn them as a whole.

To give you an idea of what kind of folks you're dealing with, where do you think many the butchers from various brushfire conflicts went when the situation turned bad?
African irregulars from the plethora of dirty little wars, various Yugoslavs from the mid-90's civil war, Latin American paramilitaries, "death squads", I'll give you one guess as to their employment these days.

As for the American Foreign Legion, I don't think it's that good an idea. The American society frankly doesn't need any more militarisation, nor does their army need such "expendable" military units of outcasts, desperate people and foolhardy yahoos. Foreigners can get into the US army as it is, and if you're that determined to get there, you shouldn't mind the extra trouble it takes.

	16-01-2003 04:39									#48
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Finally, thanks for your comment on the topic .

Ok, let me just say that I agree that those are problems, that they become outcasts, desperate people etc. However, Americans are having hard time recruiting people as we speak. It's a problem. Also they have a thing called rotation, what is not known in our army (which sucks) .

Now they attack Iraq, what if NK decided to do some war? Enough men? Not nearly enough! Besides, we'renot talkinb about 200 000 men troops here. Maybe 20 000 or so. Even less. The point is, it's cheaper, and these people are also volunteers. And to make it so that they're not jsut desperate fools, it would only apply to certain 'safe' countries first, so they're not in it for the food. Also pay is low, so true mercs wouldn't be interested. Also I didn't suggest French model, where they are different from the French army. They'd be integral part of the US army. They'd be US army, just like the rest of them. Mixed up with US soldiers, so they won't become outcasts, and later on neutralized citizens, therefore American troops. They all fight under the same flag, with same officers. They all speak english. They are cheaper. Besides, no need for so big of a draft if there are also foreigners. Plus these people have the same requirements as the rest of them. They might have even experience, so that's a plus too. So, these troops are not 'expendable', sure maybe deplyoed easier.

And no, it's very tough to get in, because you need a green card. It's not that simple even if one is determined.

	16-01-2003 04:43									#49
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BEsides, this is not making the US more militarized. As I said, it wold be a small help. Think about it. They could station in Germany for example, making soldiers now stationed there to have a vacation, shorter rotation. Also reserves wouldn't be necessary to call so soon.
Like I said, it's tough for the recruiters today in the US, they have to pay the soldiers salaries etc, it's expensive. They'd get cheap, quality soldiers more easily.

	16-01-2003 04:48									#50
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I'll admit there are militarily sound reasons for such a "legion", but I still disagree that it should be created.
Also, remember that such a unit is inherently antidemocratic. You're in effect proposing that a government that can't get enough volunteers from its citizens should use foreigners to fight the wars it wants to.

	16-01-2003 04:51									#51
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The idea of it would be, that they want to become Americans. They'd have to give up their passports, also abandon their former armies, as it'd be illegal for many nationalities. So these people wouldn't be bunch of foreigners fighting Americas wars, it would be a group of former foreigners, soon to be neutralized, soldiers in American ranks, soon to be Americans.

	16-01-2003 04:53									#52
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The effect would be no different, though.

	16-01-2003 04:56									#53
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quote: Jaakko, Muhammed Ali said he wouldn't fight in Vietnam because Vietnamese had done nothing to him personally, and was not his enemy. I don't feel the same way. I believe in solidarity, to help your friend. I think the best way to show your solidarity to friend is to step next to him and take everything that's coming, and give back.

Pekka sounds like a good man.. my level of respect for him is rising...

Jaakko - interesting points, but i must say i do not agree entirely.

	16-01-2003 04:56									#54
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No one is forcing anyone to join. Also these people being from 'safe' countries makes it more so, that these people are just not outright poor to begin with. They have all the same requirements than the Americans have to enter the army. How is this bad for a person who wants to join, or bad for the US? It's only bad for the enemy .

	16-01-2003 05:08									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Jaakko - interesting points, but i must say i do not agree entirely.

Now that's what I call a discussion starter!

Pekka - It's not the unit's organisation itself that I'm criticising. What I'm objecting to is the loss of accountability when a government has a military unit that is independent of the public opinion. Ie. it could conceivably be used against US citizenry. I know it isn't a very realistic scenario in any foreseeable future, but it's still one of those things my principles won't allow a democratic state to have.

	16-01-2003 05:11									#56
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Jaakko, don't think for a second that I don't want to hear your arguments, they're very valuable to me.

Now, I see bad stuff going on in the world all the time, news are full of it. Also I would like to be a soldier, and do combat (or comp sci student and future coder/super nerd). I'm thinking why should I be any different from those who are fighting. Why should they have to fight, and I get to live 'in the free world' and not contribute.
I think one should earn his ways, and to be proud of his actions. You know, pain is temporary, pride is forever.
So, I'm young, still in shape, able to do combat. Why shouldn't I do it? I can think of many reasons why I should, but can you come up with good reasons why NOT to go for it? Sure, world is ugly place, some people are unfortunate and have to fight for their survival, but why should I watch it from the tv and forget about it before I go to sleep? Why not just go, fight with the 'unfortunate' ones, defend my beliefs, take out few enemies. Then I can say and feel I have earned my place, I have really contributed to the common goal, and if I die in the way, well, at least I TRIED.

	16-01-2003 05:16									#57
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How would it be independent from public opinion?
These would be soon-to-be-americans. Except no mothers are crying if they die. That's a benefit . They're not so much as a legion, but soldiers with flag in their sleeve, just like the next man who was born in texas.

Do you mean that some day gov could demand service from everyone, so they can keep citizenship?

	16-01-2003 05:34									#58
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Yeah, don't worry, we're having a good and interesting discussion.

As for your opinion, it's good for you. Personally, I see no inherent value in fighting. There are always some subset of people fighting a war somewhere, but as long as it's not an extreme case like WW2, I'm not going to go out of my way looking to participate. Looking out for wars to fight was never the idea of modern western society in any case.
Besides, I'm too cynical to believe that any world power acts out of anything else except self interest. It's a mistake to believe that any of us owe any debt of blood to other countries.

	16-01-2003 05:41									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka How would it be independent from public opinion? These would be soon-to-be-americans. Except no mothers are crying if they die. That's a benefit . They're not so much as a legion, but soldiers with flag in their sleeve, just like the next man who was born in texas. Do you mean that some day gov could demand service from everyone, so they can keep citizenship?

No, rather that you'd have a part of the military that consists of non-Americans who want to be Americans, who could be much more easily used against American civilians. It would be easier because their only link to America would absolutely depend on the government that gives them orders.

	16-01-2003 05:47									#60
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I agree to some extent, yes.

I would not go and promote my model to young kids anyway, I think it's bit weird too.
And you know, I have given you numerous of reasons why I should go and do combat, solidarity, what ever.
They are all good reasons for me, but to answer with one word why, I can't give you that, I don't know how to explain it, I just feel like it's for me, it's my destiny or something. I woudln't fight for anyone that is 'good', so maybe I'm contradicting myself, being hypocrite, fair enough.
I woudln't go half around the world to go in armed conflict with 100 on the other side and 500 on the other side. Forget it . If it paid good, maybe then though .

Sure, big powers are their to look out for their own intersts mostly. But my model gives everyone a piece of that. By fighting for it, you can become a citizen, thus enjoy the results. And no, I don't think I owe anything to anyone right now. I also don't think I have contributed anything. I just want to make the world little less unfair by joining to the fight if there is one and my buddies are on the other side, forced to fight. You see, many of these, US soldiers for example, want to be in the army, or whatever, but I don't think many of them wants to really do combat in the front lines or where ever the fighting is at its best. Many of them signed for doing the service, maybe getting some money or career, buddies, whatever. In this case, I'd be joining to show that there are willing people too, maybe saving someone from draft who don't want to fight but live a productive life with his family. Now I don't care about that, not yet anyway, the family stuff and safe life. So I'd be making someone a favour too.

But, can you answer the former question about my model of the 'legion', how would it be independent from public opinion?