15-01-2003 09:03									#1
	American Foreign Legion part 2 Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Okay, DinoDoc already had this thread some time ago, but we couldn't find it.
It was pretty much based on http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinio...25/ncguest1.htm story.

For lazy people, it is about getting same kind of foreign legion like the french have.
I don't think this is a good idea.

But I think it would be a great idea to let foreign people to join the US army more easy. Now it requires green card (which they won't help getting) and all that stuff.
How about if we just let young males from safer countries come in, train them, make contract and send them fight those terrorists? These foreigners (like me) already have military backround,so they can be valuable asset. It would be cheap way to get lots of more soldiers fighting for the US, as it wouldn't have to pay salary for them, just basic up keep and maybe pocket money for daily expenses, grant citizenship after service is over and it was done with honor, plus educational benefits, like sponsoring for college tuitions etc.

This would not attract hardcore mercenaries, since they wouldn't get paid, and they'd have binding contract.

There are already millions of illegal aliens in the US, more crossing the borders every day. So why not get some decent folks too. They risk their life for the country and protect its citizens, cheap, good quality.
They would be integral part of the US army after few years of testing the troops and seeing how it could work the best.

Also, the risk of terrorists coming in is not that big, certainly not bigger than it already is. Free cannon fodder, how can you say no?

	15-01-2003 09:05									#2
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Also these foreign soldiers would not be just bunch of foreign soldiers, they would have the same basic training etc so they can work too, but their previous experience is still a benefit. They would have to be able to speak english, and maybe some other requirements too.

After service, these people would have free tuition in schools, so they would become citizens with a degree and bright future, becoming future tax payers and loyal Americans.

edit: also to join the terrorists is pretty easy. Just have to go there and volunteer. Every soldier lost to their side is there to kill us. If we could get them come to our side, it would be one life saved, and another soldier for us.
Good for the economy too.

	15-01-2003 09:21									#3
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I am in favor of it

of course, I am always in favor of immegration

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 09:21									#4
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I would not make it completely free, I would make it so it took time before you became a full citizen

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 09:30									#5
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Of course it would not be a walk in the park. It wouldn't be a summer in the army type of service .

Maybe 2 years if stationed in foreign country and combat 3 years if stationed in foreign country without combat or 6 years if just staying in the US and not doing combat.
Something like that. I think it's essential to try to make these people to get a degree, so they won't just become alcoholics. Maybe something like you'd have to get a degree, or you won't get welfare benefits or whatever.

Also these people would have to give their passports and they wouldn't be getting them back, only after full service. If soldier becomes unwanted or not good, kick him back where he came from, or make him do laundry service for the army for the rest of his time. No free loaders, only fighters and decent folks.
Also some school etc for requirements, so it would not attract only poor people from poor countries to do it for the food. Sounds harsh, but I don't think it would work anymore, also only from safe countries first, from buddy countries. If they have gone through service there, they are pretty much reliable, they have been checked there too, so they're quite safe bet. These people are also motivated like hell, because they're not in it for the money, but fighting or citizenship and degree whatever.
If the fail at any point of the service to be loyal and good, kick them out, simple as that. Should be a good motivator. Also if they die in combat, well who's going to complain and share tears in the press.
These are not hooligans and killers, but motivated people with decent backround (coming from buddy country) who just want to join the war and fight the common enemy, who have been let down by their ***** country. That's very American, I think.

	15-01-2003 09:33									#6
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Or maybe even a model like this: 2 years of service, doesn't matter where. After that mandatory 4 years of college. After that if everything goes well, welcome, here's your citizenship. Otherwise go home commie/too stupid to learn/too scared to fight.
Or 6 years of service. This way they'd fight for 2 years at least and have a degree and promising future as tax payers. If they dont want to go to college, or are unable to do it for various of reasons, then they could just stay in the army. Either way, it's still reasonably cheap.

	15-01-2003 10:23									#7
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Aaaagh this thread is dropping.. write to your congressmen and demand this! Everyone call too, make letters etc!

	15-01-2003 10:32									#8
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very interesting article.

Im about convinced now that it wouldn't be a bad idea. I'll see about writing a letter this weekend. I dunno how much pull it would have, or even if it'll be read, but the idea is worth a shot.

	15-01-2003 22:34									#9
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I'll be writing one too, to Rumsfeld. I'll bet he doesn't have the time to read it, but I need to try.

However I think the French model is not good for the US, little modifications and it's good though.

	16-01-2003 00:54									#10
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Bumping for Pekka.

	16-01-2003 00:58									#11
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DinoDoc, thanks, now come on people, let me hear your thoughts on this one. American thoughts are of course the most important, but others are welcomed too.

The topic is not correct with my idea though. It should be something like Foreigners as American soldiers. Or something like that. Because they don't fight for the legion, they fight for America, not for their old country.

So give us your opinions, the pros and the cons and let's debate on it.
I think this subject is too big to be ignored in the US.

	16-01-2003 01:14									#12
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I am not a canadian so I can't answer, Pekka.

btw, ONCE AGAIN, what about the FFL? they're operating on the border with Somalia, mind you.

	16-01-2003 01:32									#13
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Sure you can answer, just say what you think of this idea in general!
If no one says anything, it says that no one is interested.. so it's better to say just 'yeah, good idea!' than nothing.

FFL is.. aagh . I think it's not for me. Once again, I'd have to make 5 years minimum contract, learn french and it's customs (not that they're bad, but adds to burden), live like french, and big chances for no action, just cleaning the barracks. Money is not good, so there's nothing to motivate, except action, but it's unlikely. And it's binding contract naturally.. so.. there's no rewards.
It'd be different, if it was in english language and normal habits, but I could stick my head to something that I can't get out of for 5 years of my life, only to see what it's like to clean and make food, and speak french. Peace keeping at max. And that doesn't give me any credits for my future, if I come back to Finland, I'd have to hide the fact that I went there. Everything is so uncertain if you enter those gates, nothing is for sure. Most likely I'll end up with no money in bank account, just memories of life in barracks and few buddies.

	16-01-2003 01:37									#14
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Azazel, but it's not completely out of my plans just yet.. if it's the only one and I can't get anything else going on soon, then maybe. It's better than merc business for me at least. I have read lots about this, and mostly every Finn I've read from, have regretted they ever went there because it was boring, and they thought it was quite backwards

edit: this is a good choice for people who can't make any money in their country because it's poor and all.. don't get any food and so. Or people who want to get french citizenship, now it's a good deal for them. But for a male who is from western country, looking for action, it's not a good choice maybe.

	16-01-2003 01:44									#15
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Why do you want to see combat?

But whatever you do, don't ever become a merc. Those people are the lowest scum on the earth.

	16-01-2003 01:50									#16
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It's just something that is something for me. I can't explain it so that it would make any sense to someone else. I think there's a big chance I'll get killed, injured seriously or at least mentally unstable. But no, I'm not suicidal.
Mercs are lowest scum on the earth? Why? They are not all bad, not all do anything for money, kill women and children. Not at all. Many of them see a fight they want to fight in, because of other reasons. Some fight for money too, but they're not all monsters, they still choose their side. Sure, some of them are scum, but not all of them.

Back to the topic, people share your opinions .

	16-01-2003 01:59									#17
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From all that I've seen and read, mercs by their very nature tend to fight only the easy battles, meaning that all they generally amount to is butchering ill-equipped militia-type units. Whatta way to make a living.

I also have some serious ethical problems with people that are willing to further war for personal profit.

	16-01-2003 02:04									#18
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Jaakko: I don't know why he does, but I guess he wants to do something influential with his life.

Pekka: let your heart guide you in whatever you do. I still hope you'll get a decent job.

	16-01-2003 02:09									#19
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To give more precise answer in the mercenary thing..
You have to first realise what it means. Mercenary is not the same as professional killer, or hitman. I would never kill someone for money.
I think the war itself is something .. stupid and should be avoided. War itself is evil. But wars happen all the time, mercs are not causing wars. They are only fighting in them. Now why would one go looking for it, if one can live in his country safe? That I can't answer.. I don't know. I guess some people are different in that way.
I believe in peace, but if some people won't think the same, I won't go waving peace signs, I go kill them, in order to have peace. I'm not starting anything, I want to finish it.

Now, war is mostly business, so is mercs.. they're business men in my opinion. They do contracts, negotiate, and go do their job. Difference is they might have give their life as a price.

Think of a small country. They don't have a good army, they have a powerful enemy. Their survival does not look good. Then mercs come in. They are willing to fight for them, and get paid for it. Most mercs identify the enemy as their enemy too, not just the enemy of the government they're fighting for. Why should they wait in their countries for the enemy to attack, why not go for it and fight the enemy, do combat the first chance they get? These people also are buffers, they slow the enemy to advance in their operations, perhaps even stop some armies advancing to other countries. Not single handeldy, but they do contribute. People who kill women and children and are basically psychos give bad name to honorable business. They shouldn't be thought as mercs, rather as psychos.

Think about their sacrifices? They leave their safe enviroments, and go do some combat in foreign countries, if they're caught by the enemy, what do you think happens to them? I bet they get tortured slowly. They might have a doctor to keep them alive so they can be tortured even more. Enemy doesn't like people who volunteer to kill their troops. If they get killed in some remote location, no one will remember them. There's no funeral. They don't have any benefits when they retire. They might not even get their first pay check. I wouldn't call these people the lowest scum of the earth. Of course it's not that romantic, but they don't start wars, they don't get treated like heroes. And they don't kill innocent civilians any more than regular troops do. And the ones that does, are scum and just happens to be mercs also.

	16-01-2003 02:12									#20
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Jaakko, I don't knwo about that easy battles only thing. They have contracts, and they don't get paid if they don't do the job promised. Also it's not their fault if commanders give them easy jobs. It doens't matter what equipment enemy has, it's not supposed to be fair anyway. Killing is still killing. Besides, why is it killing and not defending the other side too? Defending is mostly killing.

Also, it's not a rule in merc business to do it for the money only. I bet they all still decide their sides with their own ethical points of view, how distorded they might be. I wouldn't fight my friends for any money. However I'd fight my enemy with lower salary.

	16-01-2003 02:16									#21
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For example if Estonia was attacked by China for some reason, I'd prolly go to Estonia and fight the enemy. Why? Estonia is my buddy, China is not. China is not my enemy, but if it comes to fight in Estonia, it becomes my enemy. Now, that's ethical enough for me. Sure, I might get my way to be with other foreigners and make few bucks out of it too.

If NK decides to do some combat with the US, they become my enemy, because the US is my buddy. I'm not fighting so much for the US, I'm fighting for myself. I will fight for my buddies. If two buddies fight, I wouldn't go in then, even if there was a profit for me. It's all personal. Now, if I can't get to fight in the US army, why not then just travel to the place, find other mercs, and start fighting anyway? I'm still fighting my enemy, and that's what I need to do.

edit: ALso, theres a huge chance of serious injury. You lose your leg and get blinded. I think they don't have medical coverage. What is that person going to do then? Return to his country with one leg and a stick, with a past that he can't reveal or he gets to spend some time in jail. He can't do anything, he don't get any benefits. He's pretty much screwed big time. Some people do it for the profit only, but not everyone. So it's not fair to call all the mercs men without honor. I bet it's the second oldest job in the world, they are hated everywhere but still there are some good men in it too.

Last edited by Pekka on 16-01-2003 at 02:27

	16-01-2003 02:25									#22
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quote: From all that I've seen and read, mercs by their very nature tend to fight only the easy battles, meaning that all they generally amount to is butchering ill-equipped militia-type units. Whatta way to make a living.

that is so untrue. If mercenaries would be sent to the easy battles, and to mass murders, why not just pick up a couple of children and let the have AKs. That's what the african warlords do.

Throughout history, mercs have often been devout and loyal soldiers. It depends on the mercenaries really.
Hannibal used mercenaries. the swiss guard are mercenaries. mercenaries' only fault is that they get paid cash for surviving.

quote: I also have some serious ethical problems with people that are willing to further war for personal profit.

this is a wrong way to think about it. They're not furthering war, but fighting in it. It's their boss' decision to fight or not. I also don't think that Pekka is an immoral person that just joins for personal gain, but will also fight for a side who's goals he can understand and sympathize with. Otherwise he would just becoem a South China sea Pirate.

	16-01-2003 02:31									#23
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Mercs fight for the money and want to be around to use it, so you rarely if ever see them in the ranks of the outnumbered underdog, because those outnumbered underdogs most often get killed in wars.

As such they just another aggravating factor in the conflict, and often are directly involved in events leading to atrocities. After all, they know better than to bite the hand that feeds them.

Simply put, if they were honorable men, they wouldn't offer to kill people for the highest bidder.

	16-01-2003 02:34									#24
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Azazel, Exaclty my thoughts. I'd fight for the side that I believe in. Or just because the other side is my enemy.
It makes no difference to me if I was in gov troops or not. Mercs don't fuel wars, they are just on the other side. Also I don't believe in easy battles thing, since there's no need to hire mercs to do that. Maybe they're sometimes just too powerful because of the experience in the group and knowledge, makes the enemy look weak, it's not their fault.

Also think about this. If the US allowed foreigners in, like I suggested, to fight in their lines, that would make me kind of merc too? There's personal benefit (low salary, perhaps citizenship and educational benefits), and I wouldn't even get to choose who I fight! How is that any different? Mercs usually are hired by legal govs too.

	16-01-2003 02:39									#25
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Jaakko, Mercs are in everyside of the war. Not just one side. How do you know how merc chooses his side? I heard there were Finns fighting in the ranks of Croats, Serbs AND Albanians. They all paid the highest? Don't think so. Yes, there's a personal benefit to it, is that bad? And, why mercs woudl be hired with biggest money to do the job for the winning side? SUre they have mercs too, but I think the weaker side is hiring more, since they need them and mercs are wanted there.

You make it sound like mercs come in when the war is over, make million bucks to kill the women in the village after regular troops took the enemy soldiers POW.

edit: example. I'm commanding some troops in my country. Bunch of foreign soldiers come in, identyfing themselves as mercs. I ask them why they want to be on our side. First guy says 'You have my symphaties.. I want to fight with you'. I say welcome. Second guy says 'I don't like your enemy, they are my enemy too'. I say welcome. Third guy says 'I'm a devoted Christian, and I think it's time to kick some infidell butt!'. I say welcome.
Fourth guy says 'I'm a psycho, I like killing'. I say get out before I shoot you. Fifth guy says 'I don't care who you are, you are so backwards people and you smell funny, I just like the money'. I say welcome to the winning team!

Last edited by Pekka on 16-01-2003 at 02:51

	16-01-2003 02:50									#26
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Look, the bottom line is that mercs fight wars for money, without accountability, with an obvious interest in keeping the conflicts going.
They switch sides, perform atrocities, extort money, simply because they can do it without having to explain their actions.
They aren't the in the business to help people, they want to make money.

	16-01-2003 02:53									#27
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Jaakko, some are. Some are not. This does not make every merc a bad person. I'm sure there are many mercs who don't kill civilians for fun and eat their babies. They like the money, sure, who doesn't. It's business.
Some of them switch sides for higher salary, some won't. LIke I said, mercs are in every sides of the war.
They don't have to fuel the wars, they happen anyway. There are no tens of thousands of mercs out there anyway.

	16-01-2003 02:56									#28
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Bottom line is, every merc turned down is a merc for enemy .

	16-01-2003 02:58									#29
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quote: Look, the bottom line is that mercs fight wars for money,

how does it differ from any other non-conscripted soldier?

	16-01-2003 03:00									#30
	Got spare money?

Mercs as in mercenaries as a whole, as in mercenary companies, not the individual person.

Edit: who do you think hires mercs anyway? It's most always tinhorn dictators who want to have a lil' bit more ground to rule.