16-01-2003 02:46									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

You want a neanderthal Boris?

Christians agree with Azazel- homosexuality is hard on your health, and hard to quit, just like smoking.

"smoking creates a multitude of ills inherent to the act that makes it negative both for the participant and the innocent bystander. Homosexuality carries no inherent problem of that kind. Then there's the whole point that smoking isn't comparably a part of who anyone is. Anyone can choose to smoke or not."

The big difference is the innocent bystander. Second hand smoke has tremendous consequences for people who do not even smoke, and so it is restricted to certain indoor areas or left outside.

"we all know smoking is bad, but do we hate smokers? "

precisely. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Anyway, I agree that they should be able to fight in the military, if they so desire. One's sexual orientation has no bearing on how well they fight. However, some soldiers will be uncomfortable working with them. For this reason, I think they should be careful.

Azazel- "but as long as it doesn't offend anyone, I'll tolerate"

What if the other soldiers are offended by serving with an openly gay man? Does this mean no gay people will serve? Must you also tolerate intolerance?

	16-01-2003 02:47									#32
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I simply would like my kids to have kids of their own, I know it doesn't contradict, but I am a strong believer in the basics of life, and as such, I believe that having an offsping, an next generation is one of my very few reasons to live, the chances of a gay man having a biological child are much lower of the straight. If I had an option of sorts to choose between two offspring, totally equal in all other aspects, I'd choose the heterosexual, however I'd rather have my son/daughter to be a self-respecting, strong-willed, gay scientist/engineer,etc. than a straight loser of some kind.
I was talking on the educational issue. There is nothing inherently wrong with you, of course, Boris.

	16-01-2003 02:47									#33
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Orange, what shallow, horrible people. I can't imagine they were very good parents in the first place, if that's what they do to a daughter whom they supposedly love.

It's sickening how many stories I hear like that (or worse). It's amazing how many parents view their children like property that is there for them to control and to somehow reflect well on them rather than as independent human beings.

	16-01-2003 02:49									#34
	Support Apolyton

i agree completely She hasn't seen them in years...

how did your parents react?

	16-01-2003 02:52									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

parents... pfui

	16-01-2003 02:57									#36
	Tired of ads?

quote: Christians agree with Azazel- homosexuality is hard on your health, and hard to quit, just like smoking

I am so embarassed. This is one of the low points of my life. I think that I am going to crawl under a rock now.

other soldiers: They're getting paid to do a job, serve in the army. What's their bussiness, what's the sexual preference of their mates?

The parents are *******s, btw.

	16-01-2003 03:03									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 You want a neanderthal Boris? Christians agree with Azazel- homosexuality is hard on your health, and hard to quit, just like smoking.

It's not inherently harmful, like smoking. There's also no reason to quit.

quote: precisely. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Cop out!

quote: What if the other soldiers are offended by serving with an openly gay man? Does this mean no gay people will serve? Must you also tolerate intolerance?

A valid point. Az, If a large number of soldiers indicated they were uncomfortable with or downright disliked the idea of serving alongside, say, Jews, would that make it okay to not allow Jews to serve?

Also, more and more gays are having kids and starting families, so having a gay child doesn't preclude grandchildren, whether they adopt or go the surrogate route.

Orange, pretty well at first. I told them on my 22nd birthday, when they were up in Baltimore visiting me. After dinner at an Afghan restaurant (which was wonderful, btw), we went back to my apartment and I told them there. There was a good deal of silence, though my dad is always a quiet person. My mom had that look of "I'd known it, but was in denial, but now I know for sure..." and gave me the typical "but I wanted grandkids" line ( ).

By relationship with my dad didn't change a bit, but mom had some trouble at first. She tended to avoid the subject if it ever came up, and would get noticeably uncomfortable whenever I mentioned something relating to it. She's better about it now, but still holds out a vain hope she only says to my sister-in-law (and which she's stupid to think I don't hear about) that I will one day change my mind and get married and churn out those grandbabies she wants. Why she wants them, I don't know, since she isn't a particularly stellar grandmother to my nephew as of yet.

Anyhoo, there it is. Ah, therapy through typing...

	16-01-2003 03:10									#38
	Support Apolyton

Just a piece history, the Army was directed to desegregate shortly after WWII. However, they dragged their feet until the Korean War.

I suspect the same thing will happen with gays. They will join the ranks during a war and do quite well. From that time on, discrimination against gays will decline and vanish in America.

Perhaps it will be the upcoming war with Iraq.

	16-01-2003 03:13									#39
	Tired of ads?

Comparatively, you got off easy Boris I'm glad for that...well, that you didn't have a hard time breaking the news anyway, not that others have it tougher...

	16-01-2003 03:14									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

you see, I want grandkids as well. that's the only reason why I want my son/daughter to be straight. If he used a surrogate mother, and a egg from some woman, or she used a sperm from someone, than it wouldn't bother me at all, if they're raised in a loving enviroment.

heck, we all had our incidents with "gayety" in our lives. 'nuff said, and I wouldn't elaborate more. Now, I am rather certain that I am not gay, though.

	16-01-2003 03:16									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

you experimented, Az? I never did...

	16-01-2003 03:16									#42
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by orange Comparatively, you got off easy Boris I'm glad for that...well, that you didn't have a hard time breaking the news anyway, not that others have it tougher...

Comparatively easy, yes. But to this day, it is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. It's an incredibly difficult thing to do.

	16-01-2003 03:17									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

i can't possibly imagine...hopefully it becomes a non-issue someday...

	16-01-2003 03:18									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jarouik I agree as well... though I chose civil service instead of the army, my boyfriend was in the army and was out to all the people serving with him. Since he doesn't resemble the negative gay stereotype, he had no trouble there and he actually had fun on the expense of homophobic straight guys, such as jokingly harassing some of them As far as I have understood, he was an excellent soldier, so at least the Finnish army should have absolutely no problem with openly gay people.

A living example then! I can't see any problems happening either. Only if a person fits the typical gay stereotype (you know), some guys might tease him. But it's the responsibility of the army to make sure nothing like this happens. Punish the people who act like children and tease. Now, I'm sure one of the staff officers was gay, no doubt about it . But so what, it's not like he's going to make love to you by force.

	16-01-2003 03:18									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"gays in the military?"

Bad idea. We need the toughest soldiers out there we can...

	16-01-2003 03:19									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

boddingtons, what makes you think gay men are not tough?

	16-01-2003 03:20									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Anyway, I agree that they should be able to fight in the military, if they so desire. One's sexual orientation has no bearing on how well they fight. However, some soldiers will be uncomfortable working with them. For this reason, I think they should be careful.

Even though your heart was in the right place (I think) I believe that the number of soldiers who will actually be uncomfortable working with openly gay soldiers will be negligible. Many of my fellow soldiers know I'm gay and don't give a crap. Including a great many men.
Of course, I realize that others may feel uncomfortable. So what? Unless actual sexual harassment takes place, they need to get over it. However, if they have a legitimate claim that a man was behaving innappropriately, the sexual harassment/equal opportunity policy in the military is very comprehensive. It's only a matter of following the right channels-- and believe me, sexual harassment, at least, in the units I've been in, is NOT TOLERATED. So why pander to some soldiers issues of being a little uncomfortable-- when we are throwing away a valuable human resource by discharging gays and lesbians?

	16-01-2003 03:21									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Pekka boddingtons, what makes you think gay men are not tough?

If I was fighting an army of women, I wouldn't fight as well as someone who isn't attracted to them.

	16-01-2003 03:23									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Boddington's "gays in the military?" Bad idea. We need the toughest soldiers out there we can...

Ask and ye shall receive...

Boddington, I challenge you to find any fault in mine or any other gay soldiers performance. I can shoot, run, ruck, and a thousand other things better than most, perhaps even you, the "paradigm" of masculinity, I'm sure, that you are. So don't talk about tough when you have no sense of the meaning of the word.

	16-01-2003 03:24									#50
	Put an end to popups!

The toughest don't boast.

	16-01-2003 03:24									#51
	Suffering from ads?

Orange: another teenager has made a move on me sort to speak.

	16-01-2003 03:29									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Boddington's The toughest don't boast.

No. They prove it. I have... not for you (who would need to), but don't go making silly assumptions and stinking up my air with them.
Why boast when I live it every day?
Why boast when it's the truth?
Sounds arrogant, I know. My point is, I am just as good as any soldier you can find in the armed services. I have pride in my work and in my performance, as do many others in my field-- they are proud to have me by their side, just as I am proud to go to war with the best people I know.
Can you say the same thing?

	16-01-2003 03:30									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wouldn't be proud to go to war.

	16-01-2003 03:31									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good. Then don't. I'll do it for you... worry not, the fag has your back.

	16-01-2003 03:31									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It was more than that actually, but I really rather not speak about it. No physical contact.

	16-01-2003 03:38									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

"Of course, I realize that others may feel uncomfortable. So what? Unless actual sexual harassment takes place, they need to get over it. "

Agreed, Finkian What you do on your own time is nobody's business but your own. I'm just saying be careful, because there is no need to provoke those louts. Why else would I ask Azazel about intolerance permitted under the guise of tolerance?

Boris, why is loving the sinner and hating the sin a cop-out? People are more than the sum of their actions.
I won't insist that you should change, only you can do that Boris. What I will say is that it is possible, and definately rational, and I'll keep a door open anyways.

As for health consequences- the first is a shorter lifespan, such as dying in your forties. This is a symptom of other problems: promiscuity, which produces STD's; increased incidence of drug abuse and suicide, stemming from the psychological problems some people have with the homosexual lifestyle. For these reasons alone, I would not encourage my children to be gay.

	16-01-2003 03:42									#57
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 As for health consequences- the first is a shorter lifespan, such as dying in your forties. This is a symptom of other problems: promiscuity, which produces STD's; increased incidence of drug abuse and suicide, stemming from the psychological problems some people have with the homosexual lifestyle. For these reasons alone, I would not encourage my children to be gay.

Compassionate. Compassionate, but mistaken.

While I understand these realities, they have nothing to do with the intrinsic idea of homosexuality itself.

Promiscuity? Teach your kids to respect sex as a healthy, but precious, cherished act, not a cheap time to get off.
Drug abuse? Suicide? Ha. Raise your children so that they WOULDN'T be afraid to be gay, so that they WOULDN'T be ashamed, and raise them to know that you will always accept them.

BTW, you really can't "encourage" someone to be gay. They will, whether you encourage or forbid.

	16-01-2003 03:43									#58
	Got spare money?

finkian - he's a troll...don't dwell on his crap

	16-01-2003 03:45									#59
	Support Apolyton

Boris got off easy with his coming out. Where are the tears? The hard questions? The madonna music?

My coming out to my mother was a Broadway style production. Foreshadowing, parades, bright lights, a climax, coming within inches of a musical number, and a feel good ending.

	16-01-2003 03:46									#60
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by orange finkian - he's a troll...don't dwell on his crap

(shakes head in despair) I have been tricked into talking to a wall! Goodness!
(gives in to inner shame and psychological dysfunction, flinging himself out a window, while shooting up and scratching the rash caused by the melange of STDs he's contracted)